Clockwork City: Need help with combat system

[BWA]

I am working on a game for personal use (which means I am free to steal from other games I like with impunity), and I'm a little stuck on the combat system.

It's a steampunk game (mostly because my friends and I have yet to find one we like) with the focus as much on the "punk" part as the "steam" part .. every character is opposed to The Man in some way. Combat isn't intended to be the primary focus of the game, but it should certainly be a part of play. I'd like for combat to be gritty and deadly, but without too many moving parts. Like Burning Wheel, but much lighter on rules.

The central mechanic of the game is an open-ended d6 roll. Players roll as many d6s as the character has in the relevant skill or trait (ie - Fighting, Gadgets, etc), and takes the highest roll (rather than the total number of successes). For combat, this number is compared to the opponent's Parry/Dodge roll.

I don't want  to mess with any kind of hit points system; a successful hit equals damage. Damage is rated on a short track of 3-4 categories (Bruised, Battered, Bloodied & Broken), each of which has correspondingly stiffer penalties. So getting in a fight means you're likely to get hurt, and getting hurt is serious business.

The areas where I could use some help:

1. At the moment, different sorts of weapons have no mechanical difference (a fist is as good as a pistol). It might be nice to change that, but I can't see how to do it without cluttering up the combat system.

2. I'd like for armor to have some sort of effect. I thought about having it reduce the damage category by one, but since I've currently got the damage categories rated as a ladder that you climb with each successive hit, this would result in any sort of armor making the character invulnerable.

Since it's an urban, quasi-Victorian setting, armor won't be a huge factor, so maybe I should just ignore it.

3. I feel like there should be some sort of "soak roll", whereby a character can resist the effect of damage, but I'm not sure how to fit that in, or if I should. (The system's "attributes" are Body, Mind and Will, and I'm hoping to confine combat to a single "Fighting" skill).

**

As I said, this game is not intended for public consumption, so I'm happy stealing from other systems. So far I've lifted ideas from Dogs in the Vineyard, Spirit of the Century, Full Light, Full Steam, and Savage Worlds.

If anyone feels like throwing a few suggestions my way, it would be much appreciated.

[Marshall Burns]

Here's some quick suggestions that occur to me:

Have weapons add dice to your attack roll, so that it's easier to inflict mechanical Damage with a pistol (+X dice, where X would depend on relative numerics of your system) than with a fist (probably +0 dice).  I mean, someone can take another guy from bruised to battered with his bare hands in only one attack (there's no reason to say that one attack = one blow), but it's a heck of a lot easier to do it with a cudgel or something.

Armor, similarly, could either add dice to your defense roll or remove dice from your opponent's attack roll, whichever you find most palatable.

I'm not sure what you're getting at in #3.  Are you talking about a way to temporarily ignore the penalties imposed by damage?  'Cause that sounds like a Will roll against a number of dice based on your damage rank (again, without knowing the relative numerics of your system, I don't know if you could just use the damage rank's actual number, or if it would need to be multiplied).

Your goals with the combat system seem to be to have it hard-hitting, brutal, nasty, but easy to handle, right?  With all the gritty breaking of bones and whatnot you find in heavy Sim-based combat systems, but without all the charts and crap?  If so, that's pretty much the same as my goal for combat in my game The Rustbelt, and I could email you the rules if you'd like.

-Marshall

[Willow]

Maybe your weapon adds a bonus to the total of your attack, and armor or steampunk defensive gizmos add to the total of your defense?

One warning- since you're rolling many and keeping the highest, you may want your dice to 'explode', otherwise high die pools will tend towards sixes, and you'll have a lot of ties.

For 'soak', you might have some sort of skill/talent/feat that lets you make a Body or Will roll when you get hit to ignore that wound penalty, or on really high results, ignore the wound.

[dindenver]

BWA,
  I agree with Willow. I think that although the most logical solution mechanically (add more dice to the pool) may not be the most sound statistically.
  One thing SoY did was make the skills/statistics that require tools based the fact that you had the tool/weapon. So, if I am using my sword skill, its assumed I have a sword. Then only bonus dice are added, if you have a NICE sword.
  I think a rules-lite system like yours would benefit from this approach. The reality is that at a "physics-level" some weapons do more "damage" than others. But at a person-level, you don't want to get hit by any of them. for instance, I would not rather be stabbed by a dagger (1d4) than a rapier (1d6) even though they use the same technology to wound me and one is smaller. They would both hurt me and maybe kill me. See what I mean? Same goes for unarmed combat, would you rather be stabbed or punched full force by Mike Tyson? If you are anything like me, the answer is of course, neither...

  As a complete aside. Even if this were a professional design, you can "steal" mechanics from other systems, as long as you don't steal the art assests/verbage. So, if you want a system where you roll 1d20 to hit, then you have to write the mechanics in your own words and don't crib anything from wotc (or anyone else that uses 1d20 to hit). If you can, then it is 100% legal. If you can't then even "personal use" doesn't cover copying it and giving it to someone else (including the players in your campaign).

  Anyways, good luck with your system!

[Adam Riemenschneider]

I guess it depends on how simple you want to keep it. I mean, what you're asking for requires more complexity. How far you go is up to you.

If you are truly attached to having a mere 4 health categories, I think your best way to get variance through weapons is to go with the plus dice concept that others have mentioned. Yes, you are going to have situations where both sides of the check have a 6. I think the best solution here is that the person with the *most* 6's wins the check, in this case.

How many +d6's a weapon is worth depends on two things: how much weight you want weapons to have in combat, and how many d6 a character is normally rolling in a fight. For example, if "Expert" riflemen have 4d6 to roll, and you want weapons to have equal potential weight as skill, then weapons should add somewhere between 1 and 4 d6 per roll.

As for some kind of soak roll, if you want your characters with a higher Body stat to essentially be able to take on more damage, why not just give them an extra health box or two, instead of relying on a pass/fail (see below) situation of a damage absorb check? It will keep things faster, and get your point across.

*pass fail: Because all attacks do 1 point of damage, getting hurt is an all or nothing (pass/fail) situation.

If you truly want more weapon damage variance, but want to avoid insta-kills (and a separate damage roll after a successful hit, which slows things down), I'd say make a designation between Bruising, Lethal, and Massive damage. Simply, Bruising is from fists or light things, and does 1 damage each hit. Lethal is knives and guns, and each does 2. Massive damage is 3+ damage, from huge things like a bomb, cannon, or the like.

But I'd still stay away from a damage absorb/soak roll.

If you desire a Critical hit situation with your d6, how about if you roll 3 sixes, you add another damage? If you roll 6 sixes, you add two damage?

-adam

[Vulpinoid]

If you're going with the concept of extra dice reflecting more powerful weapons there are a few more things to consider.

Firstly, if you're rolling those extra dice at the start with the hit roll, then extra dice means a better chance of a hit as well as a better chance of damage. Bigger nastier weapons tend to be more unwieldy, and therefore less likely to hit, even if they do offer a better chance of larger damage over the long run.

The easiest way to minimise this effect would be to roll a weapon's extra damage dice only after successful hit had been scored. But this would slow things down a bit (if you were to go this way though, weapons would add some dice to the roll after a successful hit, and armour could simply deduct some of these extra dice before they are rolled).

Since you already seem to be playing with a 2 roll system (Attack Roll vs Defence Roll) you probably wouldn't want to slow things down too much, another way to do things might be to roll 2 colours of dice. White ones represent the chance of a hit, red ones represent extra damage...roll them all at once, but read the white ones first and if the hit is considered successful, consult the reds.

Another point to consider is that six health levels might be a good idea if you're using a d6 system. That way you can link the health levels to die values in different ways. It might be harder to heal someone who's really badly injured, but easy to heal someone who's lightly injured, compare the die roll to the injury level.

Just some ideas.

V

[BWA]

Thanks for all the responses. This is really helpful.

One point: I was planning on relying heavily on open-ended rolls. So if one guy has 4d in his Fighting skill, and another guy has 8d, the second guy is more likely to roll a couple sixes, and get to re-roll and add them. So his "attack" score for that combat will probably be 10 or 11, which is a pretty high number for that other guy to beat.

Several people suggested having a weapon add dice to the attack roll, and armor add dice to the defense roll. initially I felt that was too "D&D" (ie - "Why does armor make you harder to hit?"), but, as Adam points out, adding stuff means adding complexity, so for a system this simple, something abstract like that is probably okay.

Different-colored dice is an idea I like, but I really want to avoid a separate "damage roll". I'm not, however, married to four wound stages (I think I just came up with four alliterative words), and maybe six fits better.

Thanks again for the feedback.

Marshall, I'd love to see the combat rules for your system. If you don't mind, you can send them to me at brian.minter(at)gmail.com. Thanks.

[BWA]

I wrote up a first draft of my combat system, based partly on some of the feedback from this thread. +2d bonus to Marshal for sending me a copy of his own combat rules.

I tried out six damage categories, per Vulpinoid's suggestion, but four seemed to preserve the deadliness of combat that I was after.

I hope to playtest this next week, but a few areas where I can foresee problems...

1. Initiative: It might be messy to have people acting at the same moment, given the opposed-roll system of combat, but I can't see a solution that doesn't involve adding rolls.

2. The only combat skill I included in the game is "Fighting", but I do like the idea of two different kinds of defense roll (block vs dodge). I'm not sure if those should be two separate skills, or just subsets of the Fighting skill. Either approach mars the simplicity of the skill list, and also places more emphasis on combat as part of the game, which I'm not sure I want.

3. I have not really considered ranged combat, as far as whether it should work differently. Yet a steampunk game will need pistol duels as well as fisticuffs.

Once again, any feedback is greatly appreciated.

***

Initiative
Who goes first in combat is determined with a 2d roll. Highest roll goes first, followed by all remaining combatants in descending order. Characters with the same initiative score act simultaneously; the actions can be resolved one after another, but the effects are considered to take place at the same moment.

Attack & Defense
To attack an opponent, a player must declare his character's intent, rather than the outcome (ie - "I try to stab him in the heart with my knife", rather than "I slash him with my dagger."). After doing so, he makes his attack roll. An attack roll is usually determined by the character's Fighting skill, modified by any weapon or advantage dice.

The attack roll is opposed by the target's defense roll. A defense roll is usually determined by the character's Block or Dodge skill, modified by any armor or advantage dice.

A character without the Fighting skill, or a Block or Dodge skill, rolls 1d. However, unlike most rolls, this roll is not open-ended (ie - a 6 does not entitle the character to additional dice).

Damage
A successful hit results in damage. The degree of success is not significant; a hit is a hit. Damage is rated on a sliding scale (see below). in general, a character at one level is pushed to the next level by a subsequent successful hit, and so on. The effects of damage levels are cumulative.

-- Bruised: No effects. This condition fades when the encounter ends.
-- Battered: -1d penalty to all rolls (combat and otherwise). A successful Will roll of 6 reduces this condition to Bruised. Making this roll requires a full turn.
-- Bloodied: -1d penalty to all rolls (combat and otherwise), and no open-ended rolls are possible. This condition can be reduced to Battered with a successful Physick roll of 6 plus one full day of rest.
-- Broken: No actions are possible. This condition can be reduced to Bloodied with a successful Physick roll of 10 plus one full week of rest.

Weapons & Armor
Weapons add dice to a character's attack roll, while armor adds dice to a character's defense roll (for block actions only, dodge actions are not aided by armor dice). Some typical weapons and armor:
Knife +1d (attack)
Club +1d (attack)
Sabre +2d (attack)
Axe +2d (attack)
Leather coat +1d (defense)
Mail hauberk +2d (defense)
Shield +2d (defense)
Steam-powered armor +4d (defense)

[Vulpinoid]

Damage
A successful hit results in damage. The degree of success is not significant; a hit is a hit. Damage is rated on a sliding scale (see below). in general, a character at one level is pushed to the next level by a subsequent successful hit, and so on. The effects of damage levels are cumulative.

-- Bruised: No effects. This condition fades when the encounter ends.
-- Battered: -1d penalty to all rolls (combat and otherwise). A successful Will roll of 6 reduces this condition to Bruised. Making this roll requires a full turn.
-- Bloodied: -1d penalty to all rolls (combat and otherwise), and no open-ended rolls are possible. This condition can be reduced to Battered with a successful Physick roll of 6 plus one full day of rest.
-- Broken: No actions are possible. This condition can be reduced to Bloodied with a successful Physick roll of 10 plus one full week of rest.

I don't want to sound like a broken record on this one, but you could easily change this 4 level damage progression to six levels by surrounding these injured levels as follows...

Healthy
Bruised
Battered
Bloodied
Broken
Dead

Sorry I just like the elegance of six levels compared to six sides on the die.

Second question...what are the mechanical differences between dodging and blocking? Does dodging take longer (using up an attack action in the process), but completely avoid the blow? Is blocking a more instinctive action (you don't have to sacrifice an attack to do it), but a successful block still has a chance that a lower level of damage might get through?

I'm just wondering why you'd have the two options? Why would you bother to dodge if armour only provides benefits to blocking...?

V

[BWA]

Sorry I just like the elegance of six levels compared to six sides on the die.

Yes, but then what happens to my lovely alliteration?

I'm just wondering why you'd have the two options? Why would you bother to dodge if armour only provides benefits to blocking...?

I was thinking there'd be no inherent mechanical difference, but you'd have to use Dodge instead of Block to avoid a ranged attack. Maybe that's an unnecessary level of complexity for a rules-light system though...

[Vulpinoid]

Yes, but then what happens to my lovely alliteration?

Point Taken

[Eldrad]

Simple Combat

Each Player rolls 1d6 and result is below.

1 Healthy
2 Bruised
3 Battered
4 Bloodied
5 Broken
6 Dead


MODIFIERS

Hand to hand subtract -2
Clubs -1
Blades and Bullets
Large Blades and Bullets +1
Explosions +2

Armor
Light -1
Heavy -2

Agile -1
Very Agile -2

Skill level would also add subtract.
Unskilled -1
Average 0
Skilled +1
Expert +2
Master +3

This version of combat is completely simple BUT it would make the players and enemies think twice about combat.


A few sample enemies

-Town Guard with Spears and Muskets wearing Light -1 Armor.


-Expert +2  Assassins with Two Handed Swords +1 Wearing heavy Armor -2. That would be a total of +3 to hit and -2 to be hit.

[Eldrad]

I kinda played with this system above.

Very deadly but kinda fun.

Blood everywhere!

Two normal guys Fed and Barney going at each other with swords both roll the highest get first hit a natural 6 (Fred) and the looser gets a 3 (Barney).  Barney dies in a pool of blood as Fred cheers!

One roll to determine to hit, initiative, and damage. Very fast system!

There could be a simple speed modifier that adds to the roll only to determine if the character goes first and not for damage purposes.

Quick +1
Very Quick +2

On the roll above Barney's effective place in the round would have been a 5 if he were Very Quick. Still too slow for Fred's quick hit with a sword.

Armor and Agility BTW subtracts from the attacker's dice roll.

[Eldrad]

Your level of health determines much as well to total dice rolls.

1 Healthy
2 Bruised -1
3 Battered -2
4 Bloodied -3
5 Broken Unconscious
6 Dying

[NN]

Since you already seem to be playing with a 2 roll system (Attack Roll vs Defence Roll) you probably wouldn't want to slow things down too much, another way to do things might be to roll 2 colours of dice. White ones represent the chance of a hit, red ones represent extra damage...roll them all at once, but read the white ones first and if the hit is considered successful, consult the reds.

The defender could also roll two colours of dice:

white to avoid the blow - dodging / parrying / etc: 
red to ressit the blow - armour etc.