Where to begin?

[Uncle Dark]

I like Hero Wars (I have to disagree with Josh and state that I think the rulebook is buggy as hell... No set of rules should require a 4 page erratta just so you can tell the difference between a 1/4 modifier and a 1/2 modifier), and I like what little I've seen of Glorantha.

I liked talking about Glorantha with some old gamer buddies I once had who were RQ players (though I never got around to playing it myself).  I loved everything that I heard about it as a mythic setting, and such.

So, when HW came out, I got the basic rulebook.

Now I have 4/5 of the rules to the game (Hero Questing was not in the rules?!  You mean I have to shell out another $20 to find out whether or not I even like the idea?!) and just enough info about the setting to know that I need to know a lot more before I'm comfortable running a Glorantha game.

So where do I begin?  I like the Issiaries site, but the organization of it makes it hard to know where to start.  It seems to me to be like an encyclopedia that is organized on a scheme that only makes sense to those already familiar with its contents.  I don't currently have $20-$40 to buy more rulebooks.

Can anybody point out some central thread in the vast labyrinth of Gloranthan lore to guide this poor Athenian through it all?

Lon

[ This Message was edited by: Uncle Dark on 2001-06-27 05:05 ]

[ This Message was edited by: Uncle Dark on 2001-06-27 05:05 ]

[Blake Hutchins]

Actually, the Narrator's Guide is only $15, not that you should take that as a constructive answer.

At the risk of offering you the most obvious (and thereby redundant) advice, I suggest scanning through the material on the Issaries site, pulling what you want, and proceeding from there to make your own game without worrying about what Glorantha is or is not. Want a clan-based pseudo-Norse game? Set up a Heortling saga centered on a village. Want a more urban game of civilized, Lankhmar-like intrigue and decadance? Create a Lunar city and go to town. Want a story based on a mercenary band in a foreign country? Make up a Malkioni warband. Create your own cults. Get exotic. Try a low-powered game to start (fewer Heroquests there).

Glorantha is big enough that you can fit in pretty much whatever style of game you'd like to explore.

Hope this helps.

Best,

Blake

[Uncle Dark]

Blake,

Thanks.  I had thought of that one already, but it's an idea good enough to bear repeating.

I suppose a great deal of my frustration comes from the fact that I got the book not because of Robin Laws' system (which is great) but in order to get into Glorantha, and the scattered and shallow bits of background were very dissapointing when I knew that there was much, much more to be had.

Perhaps Gloranthan Visions would be a good buy in this case.

My main concern as a GM is not "but I don't know enough to make it real Glorantha (tm)," but rather "when I can afford the time/money to get more 'official' info, how much re-writing and ret-conning am I gonna have to do to use it?"

Also, little bits like:
What is the geography of Dragon Pass?

How long have the Lunars occupied Heortling lands?

Is there any real difference between Sartars and Heortlings?  And if so, how should this be reflected in keywords and abilities?

What if I want to inclued Durulz or Uz?  Few, if any, of the great and intriguing illustrations actually refer to material presented in the rules.  They tease.  So, because of the captions, I know that elves are plant-creatures with a semi-group mind.  But how do I model that in play?  How feasable are Aldryami PCs?

And how do I answer these questions without either making it all up (and increasing the re-write/ret-con involved in using published stuff later) or spending many nights sifting through the web?

Lon

[ This Message was edited by: Uncle Dark on 2001-06-27 14:24 ]

[Blake Hutchins]

Hi Uncle Dark (great moniker, btw -- I'm sure the Uz would appreciate it):

Hmm. Glorantha is big. Details are vast. Have you considered you may be too concerned about setting continuity? I understand not wanting to have to retrench upon acquiring new books in future, but it sounds like you face paralysis if you don't simply grab the bit in your teeth and go. If you're that worried about adhering to official lore, steer clear of the undefined areas or keep them under the umbrella of "Narrator Mystery" such that you can reveal the truth down the road... when it's available.

The Narrator's Guide has a sample story arc that winds through four scenarios. It's not too bad and might help you get an idea of what kinds of adventures are possible. On the other hand, the 100-word character creation paragraph leaves a huge opportunity open for the players to inject a ton of creative ideas that are in no way a part of "official" Glorantha. Nifty stuff like the War of the Straw Giants and the like. That's something that totally hits my groove.

Here's another idea: historically, cults had a number of different variants, with deities combined with other deities, subdeities, aspects, etc. It's totally possible for you to make up your own cults and subcultures, then have those be a variant or even an aberration in regard to the cults and cultures of the official background.

I think a Dragon Pass map is available for download at the Issaries site. If not, I'm sure some fan site somewhere will have something. Then too, there are numerous supplements for the old Runequest that might prove fruitful. Check E-bay and scull through any RQ fan sites you might find on the net. For what it's worth, I'm looking for a version of the old Pavis material. The Big Rubble or (better for me) Sun County, which is set in the Plains of Prax. If you find one, I call dibs. :smile:

Best,

Blake

[Ron Edwards]

I've typed a reply to this thread several times, and deleted it (on purpose) each time. Why? Because it's a big topic.

Thing #1: Lon, when I get a chance, I'll send you my document I wrote for myself a while ago called "A toolbox for playing Hero Wars." It's got stuff both for system and for setting.

Thing #2: the necessary books are the Hero Wars rules, the Narrator's Guide, and the Glorantha book. In the latter, the first three chapters are the key. They are THE single reference for "what this place is." Also the maps in this book are (finally) very useful and include both large-scale and small-scale.

I hear you about the cost (mentioned that in my review, in fact). If you don't want to spend more money, then I suggest reading them in the store.

Thing #3: the key concept is that this multicultural, very widespread, powerful empire in the middle of a continent is pushing its way to the sea, in the manner of empires everywhere. (Note that the seas were recently freed of a "ban" that closed them for trade and travel, so now the empire is slavering for usable harbors.)

This empire is especially interesting because it's bound together, or overlaid, by a religion of an Arisen Goddess, one of the very few deities to come into existence since the Dawn of Time, as opposed to the pre-Time Godtime.

Well, these barbarians (Celtic/Scottish/Icelandic) are in the way, in this zone called Dragon Pass. And they are not going to let go of their storm god, who in elemental and ideological terms is utterly opposed to the aforementioned Goddess.

So you've got several decades of contact, conquest, rebellion, cultural mixing ('though no one admits it), and general destabilization of the whole area. You have Lunarized Heortlings, gone-native Lunars, hard-line native rebels, idealistic invaders, level-the-place invaders, and more. It's nuts.

Here's the deal: pick a spot in or around Dragon Pass. Then see how two, three, or all four of the cultures listed in the Hero Wars books could be mingling right there. In my game, I considered Lunar missionaries in Heortland. Another person might consider the sorcerer-culture of Black Horse County deciding between the pleas of Lunar generals and Grazer emissaries. Yet another might want to consider a band of flea-bitten, pissed-off Heortling rebels.

Once you've got this picture, check out what's up with any of the relevant variables on the Issaries site, including the much older text in the library there from the RuneQuest days. Given your focus, it won't be so overwhelming. You'll find good maps, history, and lots more.

Thing #4: The Narrator's Guide is REALLY clear about what player-characters are FOR (which is why it's needed, along with its rules for HeroQuesting; I agree this should have been in the core book). Player-characters are supposed to be trapped in a cultural clash that has NO good answer. They are supposed to arrive at a solution that no one has thought of before, and to cement this solution into existence through (1) their good right arms, and (2) forging a brand-new hero cult of their own.

Hope that helps some. I'm way-crazy busy with Sorcerer publishing, so I'm sorry for not posting more.

Best,
Ron

[Uncle Dark]

Thanks, guys.

I read over my last posts, and they seem a bit whiny to me now.  Sorry about that.

Actually, I have spent some time over at the Issiaries site, and a lot more has been put there than there was the last time I checked.  I'm much happier with it now.

Ron, I have in particular been interested in what you have mentioned about how your own Hero Wars game has gone.  I'd love to hear more, when you get time.

Blake, you're right ab out my being daunted by the scope of the setting.  You're also right about my being too caught up in what Glorontha "is."  Thanks for reminding me not to panic.

Lon

[james_west]

I was also of the impression that the new release was sort of assuming that the buyers already had a great pile of source material from the 'eighties, and that it would work badly without it. (It happens to be true of me, but it does seem a disservice to anyone for whom it isn't).

          - James

[Uncle Dark]

James,

That's the impression I got.  Actually, I think that the designers/editors were just as likely thinking that anyone buying the book was also willing to buy the others, or was buying the deluxe box set.

I, personally, am of the opinion that the core rule book (for any game) should be complete and stand alone.  I feel that expecting/requiring customers to buy more stuff to get the whole game is dirty pool.

Lon

[joshua neff]

I, personally, am of the opinion that the core rule book (for any game) should be complete and stand alone. I feel that expecting/requiring customers to buy more stuff to get the whole game is dirty pool.

me, too.
which is why i resisted buying hero wars for so long, despite having had the original runequest way back when & thinking glorantha was pretty cool (but--where are the ducks & the jack-o-bears?) & ron's evangelical praise of the game. the only reason i relented was realizing that i'll be leaving kansas city soon & i decided hero wars is definitely one of the games i'd play if someone were running it wherever i end up moving to. so i jumped in & bought the boxed set & found it fab enough that i'd like to gm it myself someday (probably a lunars narrative, set in a frontier outpost, full of intrigue & ancient mystery--sort of babylon 5 meets borges).

[Ron Edwards]

I agree with you guys, Hero Wars fan that I am. For what it's worth, the origins of Issaries and its start-up funds were not ideal. There MAY be some talk about an eventual Hero Wars boook that puts all the essentials in one place - this is pure rumor, though, so do NOT repeat it.

Best,
Ron

[Uncle Dark]

On 2001-06-28 16:10, Ron Edwards wrote:
this is pure rumor, though, so do NOT repeat it.

Well, then what are rumors for?

Anyhow, "where do I begin?" question #2:

What have people found to work for giving players with no Glorontha experience a working grasp of in-character common knowledge?

Lon

[Ron Edwards]

This requires a two-layered answer.

First, for any role-playing game I run, I have a get-together session for character-brainstorming and generally talking about why I'm running it, what I think it's for, and getting feedback about that. When I began my current Hero Wars game, a lot of that was spent looking at maps of Glorantha, talking about Lunar-Heortling conflicts, and getting a sense of how magic is regarded by this game (a big conceptual jump).

Second, because it was Glorantha, my goal was to get them VERY familiar with a pretty small area, with a general and interesting overview of Glorantha without feeling as if they had to know everything. I decided to expand and fill in detail step by step, run by run, game by game.

It was kind of a two-pronged plan, as time passed: (1) the characters learn more about the world around them, which mean the players can learn via their characters; (2) but for some things (like cosmology), the players learn more about what the characters "should know already," which is the reverse. With handouts, events, discussions, and so on happening each run, I hoped that #1 and #2 would eventually result in the players being comfortable with Glorantha.

At the very beginning, I provided a strict list of available keywords (as I described before), ran interference between the players and the various available magic keywords, and showed the players a lot of geography right in that area.

I also wrote up an original myth for the culture in that area, you know, the kind that ends, "And that's why our clan has its longhouse here, to this very day." Everyone read this and chatted about it, too, and I tried to describe how it could actually be used by characters in terms of magic.

I presented a brief history of conflict and cultures in that area. Let's see, it was high-altitude Heortland, so that means a very insular Heortling community, modified to some extent by the following:
- a 1000-year history of integrating Malkioni into the Heortling culture (more so along the coast)
- a history of troll dominance of the area, many centuries ago; replaced by the rule of the Pharoah, from the City of Wonders; finally, the recent disappearance of the Pharoah
- the very recent incursion of Lunars, including the siege at the city of Whitewall

Yes, it was a lot of prep. The good news is that my players, NONE of whom knew diddly about RuneQuest or Glorantha, are now all bonkers Glorantha-philes and Hero Wars fanatics. Taking length of play into consideration, this may be the most successful RPG I have ever run.

Best,
Ron

[Blake Hutchins]

Lon,

I've been thinking about this because after my current Mage chron wraps, I'm considering a Hero Wars run.  I'd like to try the cosmopolitan Lunar missionary route with a frontier city.  Sort of a Thieves' World concept.

Here's my likely Step One(for what it's worth): Talk to my group, give 'em some summary handouts, level with them about what kind of imagery you're thinking about, what kind of mood, premise, etc. Then proceed to a Q&A about Glorantha and what sorts of characters and stories they might be interested in. If we come to a consensus on setting and mood, start fleshing out some background things as a group, but keep it fairly loose. Do this for a couple of sessions, then move into character creation (I like the Everway round robin discussion for this).

Best,

Blake

[Alai]

This is a particularly smelly case of thread grave-robbing, but I feel impelled to dig up this thread again, since it's such a thorny question for us "know too much about Glorantha by three-quarters" types in seeking to communicate with, and generally manage not to slightly scare, the rest of the gaming public (to say nothing about the world at large).

Second, because it was Glorantha, my goal was to get them VERY familiar with a pretty small area, with a general and interesting overview of Glorantha without feeling as if they had to know everything. I decided to expand and fill in detail step by step, run by run, game by game.

I think this absolutely the way to go.  It's a big, dense world, with lots of pointlessly intricate cosmological questions creaking around the woodwork, but what does the average Gloranthan know or care of these things, at least before he experiences that "look up from your lives" moment that turns him into Protagonist fodder? -- not a whole hang of a lot. Pass round copies of "What my Father Told Me", and "Staves of the Storm Voice" (or cultural equivalents -- these are on the glorantha.com web site these days, though I'm still photocopying my ol' TAHGC edition version as it slowly decays to dust).  Those give a pretty damn solid grounding in the "feel" of the mesocosm of the setting, as far as getting one's roleplaying teeth in there.

My strongest recommend for this though is _generate your clan collectively_. It's a high-flying supersonic disgrace that this hasn't been published in a Real Book(TM) yet, which complicates actually using the damn thing no end, but there is a Heortling (well, Sartarite) clan generator on w.g.c, which kills so many birds with one stone in game startup that the avian defence league really had better not find out about it. It introduces the players to some hints of the Grand Cosmological and Grubby Local Political issues in a narrative-led and subtle fashion, and it makes the players co-creators of the game world in a way that's involving and motivating. ("Why are the clan ancestors giving us a hard time about this stuff again?" "Hey, you voted for them, bub...")

One tiny snag though is that unless one is a lot quicker on one's mental feet than I am, one is going to have a fair bit of thinking to do after the creation of this affinic monstrosity and actual start of game play, so I'd recommend writing off the rest of session one to game direction philosophical chat, character generation, or downing a few pints. (As it'll leave one with a page of numbers to crunch, the job of finding a place on the map for it, and some issues to chew over about there this fits into the grand regional ueber-arc. And local maps to draw. I mean, who doesn't like maps?)

Cheers,
Alex.

[Valamir]

Given the quality of the reply, I can forgive the grave robbing....but must you then committ the cardinal sin of mentioning a HW clan generator without including a link?   ;-)

I'd love to see this.  I've been a fan of communal "clans" since Ars Magica's Covenent book (which the point monkey in me liked even more than Orkworld's tribes).