New Diceless RPG System

[rhat]

Hi Guys,
Long time lurker, first time developer. I've recently compiled a quick-start guide to a diceless RPG system I've invented which uses seal simultaneous auctions to resolve conflict, and I'd love some feedback on it (especially if you can think of similar games).

I've got a development blog at http://d0-rpg.blogspot.com/, and the quickstart guide is available as a short PDF at http://www.filedropper.com/d0dicelessqstart.

Thanks a bunch,
Ryan

[rhat]

Typo: The last post should read "sealed simultaneous auctions" (sorry)

Now, for those folks who aren't keen on navigating to some random URL (like those with acute rick-roll-aphobia), here's some highlights from the game design:
 

• There are no dice—players are random enough: Unlike many games you may have played before, this system uses no dice at all. All conflict is resolved through a simple auction system. Everyone who's got a stake in the conflict gets a chance to push the result in their favor. Players desire different things at varying amounts, so nobody knows what the outcome of the conflict will be until the ST announces the winner.


• There are no real mechanics—except the physics of your setting: Common sense is the measure of what is and is not feasible in the game, and common sense varies from setting to setting. As a result, what's very doable or common in one setting might be impossible or game-breaking in another. In this game, we don't provide any mechanics that exist independent of a game-setting, except what's needed for the auction system to work.


• There are no arbitrary limits placed on you—the ST alone determines the bounds of possibility: Since the setting is what controls the mechanics of common sense, and the ST is the arbitrator between the Players and the Setting, he is the determining factor that limits what character can do. You can be whatever the ST will allow you to be. Want to play a dragon in a high-fantasy game? How about a sentient star-ship in a science fiction game? What about just being a lucky son-of-a-bitch? All fine, provided that you and your ST can agree on a concept with your character, you can be whatever the hell you want.

   
• If you want something bad enough, you can usually get it: Without random and arbitrary limits, what is there to keep everyone from just running around doing whatever they please? Simple, we let them run around and do whatever they please—for a price... Since we use an auction system to resolve conflict, that means that there's a price to be payed for getting what you want. If you're willing to blow your right hand off getting a head-shot on the villain, then go ahead, pay with your hand, and we'll see what the villain is willing to bid in order to keep his head. Just keep in mind, the ST alone determines what's possible, so you've never got license to run around fucking up the physics of the setting.

[Chronologist]

It looks really good so far; I just want to throw a few ideas your way.

1. It seems a little... complicated. I really wish there was a different explanation for the mechanics, and some examples of a few advantages and disadvantages.

2. I'm a little confused about bidding. Could you post a concise summary? If I can't get it, my friends certainly won't

3. I really wish there were a few examples. You know, staple heroes and villains. It would help a little.

4. How do you measure health? Do wounds simply decrease your combat ability until you can't attack and fall unconscious?

Seriously, I really like the system. I'd like to play-test it, with your permission.

Chronologist

[rhat]

I'm glad to hear that you've got a positive impression of the system.

> 1. It seems a little... complicated. I really wish there was a different explanation for the mechanics, and some examples of a few advantages and disadvantages.

Since I set out to make the rules uncomplicated by design, I'm quite curious: what makes you say that the mechanics seem complicated? Are there specific things, or general issues? Similarly, are these issues with the way things are explained or the mechanics themselves (this might be a hard question to answer, if the explanation and the mechanics are bad)?

>2. I'm a little confused about bidding. Could you post a concise summary? If I can't get it, my friends certainly won't

The way I designed it, bidding occurs like this:
1) The ST announces that an auction will take place, and sorts out who will be involved. This entails stating the conflict that the auction will resolve, such as "wildebeests appear and attempt to attack all of you: please tell me what you'd like to do".
2) Each Player considers what he'd like to do, and informs the ST secretly of this, along with what Traits he is willing to use to support this action. Following our example above, Player A secretly tells the ST that he is going attempt to leap into the trees above, and out of attacking range. To support this he informs the ST that he's going to make use of the following traits from his sheet: "Quicky, Wiry, Professional Acrobat".  These traits are now considered "bid".
3) Each Player marks the Traits that he's bid on his character sheet, so he knows how long he has until it will be usable again (I can explain this too if you have questions about it).
4) The ST then compares the bids and determines the outcome of the auction.


>3. I really wish there were a few examples. You know, staple heroes and villains. It would help a little.

Once we do our alpha play test, I should have some example setting material that I can post. Since so many of the people who've volunteered like the show Naruto, it'll probably be a bunch of characters similar to those seen in that show.

>4. How do you measure health? Do wounds simply decrease your combat ability until you can't attack and fall unconscious?

Health is not an explicit trait, though "Healthy", "Fit", and "Hardy" are all Physical Advantage Traits available to contest damage, while "Broken Ankle", "Serious Burn", and "Only a Flesh-wound" are all example Physical Disadvantage Traits that can hurt you.

The way that you'd use this to model a man being gored by an angry wildebeest is that you'd have the damage dealt by the horns result in some sort of physical disadvantage, like "Gored", which would then be used against the PC when he engaged in other auctions. For instance, if he tried to climb a tree after being gored, it would be an auction between the PC's remaining physicals and the accumulated damage traits.

Wounds and similar things not only work against you passively while you're dealing with other things (by setting up the context of the bid to be disadvantageous to you), but they can also actively work against you, as in the above example.


>Seriously, I really like the system. I'd like to play-test it, with your permission.
>
>Chronologist

Oh, by all means, please have at it. I'd be curious to see how it goes.
Best of luck!
Ryan

[Finarvyn]

> 1. It seems a little... complicated. I really wish there was a different explanation for the mechanics, and some examples of a few advantages and disadvantages.

Since I set out to make the rules uncomplicated by design, I'm quite curious: what makes you say that the mechanics seem complicated? Are there specific things, or general issues? Similarly, are these issues with the way things are explained or the mechanics themselves (this might be a hard question to answer, if the explanation and the mechanics are bad)?

I think you have some interesting ideas here, but sometimes it reads like a computer programming manual.

Multi-way Context-Weighted-Trait auction resolution:
Let there be N bidders, numbered [0,N).
Let Bs be the list of all bids.
Let the bid of bidder M be represented by Bs[M-1].

I don't think of this as being very "user friendly" even if it explains exactly what you mean. When I read passages like this, I have the urge to put the book away and run screaming from the room.

Compare your document to the text of the Amber Diceless RPG, for example, and maybe you'll see what I mean. Wujcik is a little wordy sometimes, but it's pretty clear what he means when he says something.

My solution would be to "dumb down" the language a little (particularly eliminating much of the game jargon and making it "plain english") and certainly to put in a couple of simple examples (as others have suggested).

It doesn't matter how simple the mechanics -- if the reader can't follow what you're saying they won't "get" the game.

As I said, you've got some good ideas here. Stay with it and keep us posted as to how this evolves!  :-)

[Chronologist]

One of the things that I find complicates things is how different abilities recharge at different rates and different times, depending on when you use them. It seems like a lot to keep track of. What if, instead of having a recharge rate for each power, you fully regained a certain number of abilities each round? A translation like this:


3      3
5      2
8      2
13    1

so instead of each recharging in 3 rounds, 3 fully recharge each round. Instead of recharging in 5 rounds, 2 fully recharge each round, and so on. This way characters can bid more often and keep having options.

[rhat]

...
I think you have some interesting ideas here, but sometimes it reads like a computer programming manual.
...
I don't think of this as being very "user friendly" even if it explains exactly what you mean. When I read passages like this, I have the urge to put the book away and run screaming from the room.

Compare your document to the text of the Amber Diceless RPG, for example, and maybe you'll see what I mean. Wujcik is a little wordy sometimes, but it's pretty clear what he means when he says something.

My solution would be to "dumb down" the language a little (particularly eliminating much of the game jargon and making it "plain english") and certainly to put in a couple of simple examples (as others have suggested).

It doesn't matter how simple the mechanics -- if the reader can't follow what you're saying they won't "get" the game.

As I said, you've got some good ideas here. Stay with it and keep us posted as to how this evolves!  :-)

Finarvyn: I'm a bit embarrassed to say this,  but I'm a computer programmer by trade   In any case, I think you're absolutely right about rephrasing the auction section into something less like my design notes. I'll post the revised version once I'm done. As for reading Amber, I don't own a copy, but I do have Nobilis and Universalis on hand.

One of the things that I find complicates things is how different abilities recharge at different rates and different times, depending on when you use them. It seems like a lot to keep track of. What if, instead of having a recharge rate for each power, you fully regained a certain number of abilities each round? A translation like this:


3      3
5      2
8      2
13    1

so instead of each recharging in 3 rounds, 3 fully recharge each round. Instead of recharging in 5 rounds, 2 fully recharge each round, and so on. This way characters can bid more often and keep having options.

I appreciate the suggestion, and had considered doing something similar early on, but I'm not convinced that such a system will create sufficient scarcity to prevent players from bidding whole-hog every time. With the Refresh system, there's a definite analog between the bidding of Traits and a scarcity of resources, but with the idea of arbitrarily allowing N traits to refresh every round, then there's the incentive to repeatedly do the same thing (like bidding your one super-trait in something resembling button mashing).

That said, the idea of having to track so many individual refreshing pools does sound a bit daunting at larger numbers. I don't have a fix just yet, but I've been kicking around a few ideas to handle cases that the Refresh Rate mechanic is ill suited for (such as social interactions, where I'm looking into devaluing traits rather than making them unavailable for bidding).

[rhat]

Here's a plain English explanation of the original Auction system:

Here's how you run an auction, assuming that you already have all bids in hand.

Phase 1: Do a sanity check.
Go through all of the bids, and note all of the things that were bid that won't help the bid. If something was bid that won't help but won't hurt either, just ignore it, otherwise, treat it like a Disadvantage when evaluating the value of the bids later.

Phase 2: Check for Overkill.
Quickly scan through all of the bids to see if there's someone who has obviously won, before you go through and muck around with all that tedious math. A bid obviously wins when it is orders of magnitude larger than any other bids (or combination of bids), and no realistic comparison is necessary to determine the outcome. This Phase is designed to bypass auctions with obviously asymetric bid values, and it is a good idea to actually check for a winner. If someone has obviously won during the Overkill Check, then you can skip to Phase 4.

Phase 3: Valuation.
This phase follows a simple procedure:
1) Find the Trait that has been bid amongst all bids which is least useful, this is called the Base Bid. Assign this the value of 1.
2) Go through each bid, and assign each Trait a value based on how many times more useful it is in the context of this Auction than the Base Bid. Remember that disadvantages will reduce this number, as will other extenuating factors.
3) Sum up the values for each person's bid, and figure out who has the biggest bid. They are the winner, go to Phase 4. However, if there is a tie of some sort, continue to the next Step in this procedure.
4) If there is no highest bid, or there are several bids whose values are too close for the ST's taste, then you have two options. Either procede to Phase 4 with a mutually neutral outcome as the resolution, or each bidder that is tied may bid one CONSEQUENCE, which are then compared like normal Traits (go back to Step 1, and only consider the new bids).

Phase 4: Resolution.
When there is a winner, you may resolve the auction in has favor by having the outcome of the conflict come out in a way that provides him with an advantage. Those who did not win will have something disadvantageous happen to them, depending on their original action.

[Chronologist]

I understand why you don't want a very fast refresh rate; it makes sense. You don't want them to bid everything, then wait a few turns and do it again. The problem I see is that people start running out of this to bid REALLY FAST. Also, keeping track of all of those abilities seems a daunting task. I had an idea, though.

Divide up 20 abilities among the 4 attributes of Physical, Mental, Social, and Supernatural
8
6
4
2

For example, Physical 4, Mental 6, Social 2, Supernatural 8

At the beginning of each round, roll a d20. Yes, I know the point of the game is to have no dice at all, but just hear me out. This concept can always be changed later.

Roll a d20. If it is a 1-4, one Physical ability is restored. If it is a 5-10, one Mental ability is restored. If it is a 11 or 12, one Social ability is restored. If it is a 13-20, one supernatural ability is restored. This way, players are encouraged to bid all 4 types of abilities, and they are more likely to have their strengths restored than their weaknesses. Players choose what ability is restored each time.

I DO understand that this requires a d20, but I urge you not to discard this out of hand. I think it is a solid system with a great deal of merit behind it.

[Vulpinoid]

The problem I'm seeing with a d20 roll evenly distributed is that a character has just as much chance of regenerating a low attribute as they have for regenerating a high one.

Using the example given, if it's 8 supernatural, 6 mental, 4 physical and 2 social, you might want to distribute the rolls according to the numbers allocated.

1-8 (8 chances in 20) restores a supernatural, 9-14 (6 chances in 20) restores a mental, 15-18 (4 chances in 20) restores a physical, 19-20 (2 chances in 20) restores a social.

This way players have a better chance of restoring the attributes that they've built themselves up in.


If you really don't want dice, you could always simulate this with a couple of other effects.

Perhaps refresh could be achieved through the drawing of cards (identifying each attribute to a suit), players make up a "regeneration deck". This deck consists of a number of cards equal to the respective attribute...in the exmaple, you might include 8 different diamonds(supernatural), 6 different spades(mental), 4 different clubs(physical) and 2 different hearts(social). Simply draw a card when it's time to replenish a trait. This has the advantage that when characters improve their attributes, they can simply add extra cards to their "regeneration decks".

V

[Chronologist]

I don't think you read it properly, or maybe I phrased it poorly. The chance IS determined by the allocation given.

"Roll a d20. If it is a 1-4, one Physical ability is restored. If it is a 5-10, one Mental ability is restored. If it is a 11 or 12, one Social ability is restored. If it is a 13-20, one supernatural ability is restored."

That's what I said. There's a 4/20 chance for physical, 6/20 chance for mental, 2/20 chance for social, and 8/20 chance for supernatural. I think you must have skimmed the numbers or miscounted. Still, it's good that someone supports my idea.

[Vulpinoid]

Sorry, you're exactly right. I must have just skimmed over the numbers, because I'm sure I had read it with equal chances of regaining each attribute.

I was probably in the mindset of my card drawing idea, because that struck me as a more fluid way to replenish attributes when the numbers don't make nice round figures that match with dice sides...

V

[Chronologist]

If the numbers don't match the dice sides, why not use a simple calculator? If you use the Math function and probability on a graphic calculator, you can generate any number of dice of any number of sides (I'm in a stats class, so I just learned this today). It's a little complex, but once you get the hang of it, you can start generating d23s, d17s, d31s, etc.

Anyway, I think that proportional refresh rates are appropriate. I was also thinking about the characters having an ability that lets them refresh other abilities. For example...

Alacrity (Supernatural)
Description: You recover from using your abilities faster than normal.
Benefit: You can bid Alacrity at any time to refresh any other ability you have exhausted (except for Alacrity).
Special: You cannot refresh any ability you bid this turn, only abilities that were exhausted at the beginning of the round.

This way, the fighter can use up his 2 Supernatural slots for something useful (2 instant recharges for his weapon skill). Sure, he could take defensive abilities like "Blade-Proof Skin" or "Fire Resistant", but this is a more aggressive approach. Plus, he can use Alacrity to restore a Mental or Social ability in a dire situation.

[Mike Sugarbaker]

Hi Rhet, couple of things:

1) you don't seem to define/expand the abbreviation ST anywhere. I assume it basically means GM, but it might be helpful to clear this up to help reduce the impression of complexity? I dunno.

2) As far as "similar games" go (not really all that similar, but they are diceless mechanics that a lot of Forge-goers may be likely to have as reference points), you might want to have a look at Mortal Coil and the Duel of Wits subsystem of Burning Wheel.

[rhat]

<snip>
Anyway, I think that proportional refresh rates are appropriate. I was also thinking about the characters having an ability that lets them refresh other abilities. For example...

Alacrity (Supernatural)
Description: You recover from using your abilities faster than normal.
Benefit: You can bid Alacrity at any time to refresh any other ability you have exhausted (except for Alacrity).
Special: You cannot refresh any ability you bid this turn, only abilities that were exhausted at the beginning of the round.

This way, the fighter can use up his 2 Supernatural slots for something useful (2 instant recharges for his weapon skill). Sure, he could take defensive abilities like "Blade-Proof Skin" or "Fire Resistant", but this is a more aggressive approach. Plus, he can use Alacrity to restore a Mental or Social ability in a dire situation.
<snip>

I've actually got a couple supernatural traits worked out along these lines for an example setting document I'm working on. That's one of the the really nice things about being able to represent everything with auctioning, you can create new mechanics that are mutually self-consistent without breaking anything. As an example, the setting I'm working on is a conversion of the setting for the Naruto anime into a proper game setting. All their powers are based off of a abstract but finite magical fuel called Chakra that's directly tied to their Stamina. In the show, people hurt themselves by overexerting, and by making "Chakra Usage" a Supernatural Complication, it can result in similar things.

As for the idea of rolling a dN for refreshing traits: I have to say that I like it. I'll have to rename the game system of course :-) , but it sounds a lot cleaner than all that book-keeping. However, there may be an issue with having Traits that aren't yet bid coming up on the refresh roll. For instance, if I have not yet bid any Physical or Mental traits, but I'm in the middle of a debate, wouldn't the dice system cause unnecessary refreshes in the other columns?

I'd suggest converting the single roll into one roll for each column at the end of each round. A simple d100 for each column, and a simple translation of the refresh rates into a probability that that column will refresh (do refresh rate of N into P(Refresh on this turn| Rate=N) = 1/N), so the 3/5/8/13 refresh rates turn into 33%, 20%, 12%, 7% (if you take the floor of each). That's a small difference in the number of rolls (+3), and you're guaranteed to get similar behavior as if you were doing the book keeping by hand.



Mike: (1) ST is an abbreviation of Story Teller, from a lot of the products put out by White Wolf. (2) I'll look into Burning Wheel, as I have a copy of that I've never had a chance to really crack open before. It also looks like the "ARS" system from the Marvel Universe RPG may have some other nice stuff to use as reference.