Interpenetrating astral planes anybody?

[whoknowswhynot]

I am trying to complete a cosmology for the OMNI universe.  OMNI has 11 levels of "awareness", consciousness, enlightenment or whatever with 10 being "Hell" and 0 Being omnipresent, omniscient, omnivore...etc.  The problem is where exactly to place everything for sure AND most importantly to create an interpenetrating "Astral" type plane of existance for all of these levels, from where characters in that level can manipulate the world~even if they do not have a body.  Well, since I don't have a website, I have to post it here, but short and sweet.

These are the basics...sorry it's kinda jumbled together.
10
INSANE~In Hell~Dead inside~Soul-less, uselsess.  You are completely incapable of action.  You are imprisoned. If you are tied to a physical body, you are probably trying to escape it.  Your mind will not allow you to go too far before turning back.  You are in utter anguish.  In order to escape this, you need to lose at least 1 EGO point.  Having 100 EGO points means not being able to lose them without help!  If you are not in a body, you are in HELL.  This means that you are basically in a place far away from everyone that ever cared about you.  you are alone, scared, ashamed, sick, tortured out of control, etc.  PROBLEM: You are helpless.

9
PAWN - Zombie + You are merely a lackey of someone's or some thing's.  You have little to no will of your own.  You may be a slave to your lifestyle or a slave to a greater demon, but you are a pawn.  PROBLEM: Negativity.  You are a very negative person.  You are so controlled by something or someone/thing that you no longer appear to have a soul.  Controlled in every moment and in every way.  You are miserable.  Watched.  Whatever.  Alive, in a body you are the host to astral parasites, reptilians, demons etc.  Dead, you are an astral parasite.  You hang around and find "Good people" and bring them down.

8
SHEEp ~BLIND~ Generally deluded into thinking that you have a mind of your own.  You are so controlled. You are controlled by your base desires.  You may not be a "slave" but you are definitely a robot.  You want instant gratification and feel entitled to whatever you want.  You are out for yourself to a large degree.  Don't worry, you are not a freak!  Most people are like this.  You are a sheep.  PROBLEM: Temptation.  You are controlled by sex, money, food, comfort, etc.  These things, among others, control you.  You may not even be aware of it fully.

7
PUNK~Goat~Awakened~ You have seen that there is something more to life than base emotions etc.  You rebel against the powers that be and the sheep that follow them attempting to appear different than them.  Secretly, you do wish to be a part of something, it usually ends up being more punks like yourself.  PROBLEM: Conceit.  You tend to be more concerned with style and appearance than substance.  you are a rebel without a cause.

6
OUTCAST ~ Mutant~ Goul~ The world has turned it's back on you.  No one likes you because you are too different for what ever reason and you could not care less.  You actually take pride in the fact that society does not like you.  You have no direction and are lost. You can  use a little magic.  Confused. Problem: Resentment.  You may hold a grudge.  You can be quite angry and mean towards those that shun you and those that do not see anything special about life.  [Think "Christine"]

5
SEER ~ You have vision and power.  You see a beautiful world.  You are an idealist.  A dangerous crossroads.  You know you are on the right path.  That is not a question, but you are concerned with deeper problems like a sense of urgency and a feeling of pending doom. PROBLEM: Despair.  You weep for the world.  [Think Jedi knight]

4
SaiNT + You are a hero and a savior for those without understanding.  You seek to better the world.  It is a tough job and you must avoid becoming overwhelmed with despair for the world.  There is so much wrong that one person can't fix it.  You occasionaly seem to work great miracles by accident.  Knowing you are on the right path it is a difficult one.  PROBLEM: [to give up on the world because it seems pointless]

3
MASTER >< You are a mystic miracle worker.  You do have fun though.  You have mastered your self to the point where you are a formidable physical opponent, but have no need for fighting. PROBLEM: EXPECTATION.  You may lose patience with people because you see things so clearly and simply.  You must remember that you too were at one time not a master, but a student.  After death of the physical body, the master can still make appearances in the physical world in a body.  This is usually not the case.  The master is usually ready for ascension, but could potentially live as an immortal on earth.  [Donald Shimoda]

2
GURU** you are about bored with the whole thing.  You are exceptionally powerful yet rarely willing to act.  PROBLEM: BOREDOM.

1
Prophet
The Final stage as a human.  PROBLEM: Lack of Concern

I would appreciate any feedback or pointers at all.  Thank you!

[whiteknife]

I don't see the problem with just saying that there's an "X" plane that goes alongside all the others. Especially considering these don't really seem as much like "alternate worlds" as an astral plane would be.

Also, the idea of having a problem for each level is interesting, although some seem vastly worse than others, which may or may not be a bad thing. (It seems like those on higher levels are better suited for being enemies and those on lower levels could be players.)

[whoknowswhynot]

Yes, the enemies would most definitely be around an EGO 5 or 6, but not much higher.  These would be like Darth Vader or whatever.  Sorry about the Star Wars analogies, this is not meant to be Star Wars.  Basically, my problem is that I was intending there to be a lot of beings of non-human lines of evolution, both "Good" and "Evil" that exist in these planes.  I simply am not knowledgable enough.  I have a few that were inspired by new age and conspiracy buffs, etc.  The "Demons" or "Reptilians" etc. are at the lower levels and sort of in-between worlds, then we have the "Angels" which are at the higher levels, then the Gods which are higher still.  Dark Gods are the polar opposite but exist in the higher levels too, because they are gods (just because we call them dark does'nt mean that they are "Dark").  UFO aliens exist in the mid ground around 5 and 6.  Anyone else know other types...I guess faeries...?  How do these beings interact with the physical realm?  Do some of them have bodies?  I guess my problem is that I need help with Ghostly Spiritual rules and such...

5 is meant to be the crossroads.  This is where you can choose the "dark side" and obtain temporal success in life but you will never proceed further.  This plane is where lies Armageddon.  The eternal struggle between the forces of evil and good.  At the higher levels there is no such thing as war, but at the lower levels evil is or has won.



I have a problem with dealing with After death rules, and what exists after the death of the body.  Also I intended for the higher levels to sort of exist out of regular time.  That is time is really only existing where there is a physical body and then only at the lower levels.  I have a problem incorporating this into rules somewhat.  Can anyone help out with any of these problems?  Any suggestions as to exactly how to deal with these planes?  I never played planescape so I have no clue...I am coming from a new age/metaphysical standpoint http://www.worlditc.org/f_02_macy_spirit_world_realms_0.htm

My problems arise because I wish to provide rules base enough for a theme book to cover a society that uses spiritual science or "occult tech", like on mars or atlantis that involves regular exchanges between the physical and the non-physical of differing levels of ego.


Ultimately the idea is to get the ego to 0 and therefore burst into a rainbow or something and, simply put, "Win".

[Vulpinoid]

I think the problem here is that you're confusing good and evil for enlightenment and illusion.

A character's degree of enlightenment or entrapment by the illusion of the outside world is one sliding scale. what a character chooses to do with that inherent power should probably be a different scale altogether.

In Judaeo-Christian dogma, aren't the demons and angels really different sides of the same thing. They have the same degrees of power, but use them to different ends.

Perhaps when a character transcends, they step beyond the confines of good and evil, and this is the actual reason why they no longer seem to care.

Different races may have an inherent score marking their place in the cosmic scheme of things, but I don't think that ascension needs to be the goal of all. Some groups might actively work to prevent others from reaching their level (eg. demons, asuras, oni), others may use their greater power to pretend to lesser being that they are gods (eg. djinni, fae), some may actively try to help lesser beings (eg. angels), and others may have strange agendas of their own (eg. voodoun loa, grey aliens, shapeshifters).

Having higher ego shouldn't necessarily mean being more evil, having lower ego and stronger connection to the universal whole doesn't mean goodness. Even from a buddhist standpoint, a powerful being can use their knowledge for good or for evil, but if they choose either path they are making decisions that could lock them into the illusion of samsara.   

Consider the world to be like an onion, where you can see into smaller layers, but you can't see out to larger layers. Ego 10 is the smallest layer and you have little perception of what has you trapped, you can't effect much of anything except within your own mind. Maybe with some focus or expenditure of will you can move. Ego 9 lets you perceive the world, but you know that you're a lackey and some of your thoughts still aren't your own, you can move but trying to act on your own requires focus and effort. Gradually you ascend the ranks, and you achieve more ability to manipulate the world. Beyond the levels equivalent to most people, you might start to manipulate the world in ways that seem supernatural or magical, for you this is just a better understanding of the universal principles. Lesser minds don't understand it though.

In this context, death might simply cause you to reincarnate in a new host with a higher degree of ego (unless you die in a particularly self-less way, which might even have a chance of improving your standing).

Between reincarnations things get a little trickier, because a character might suddenly see aspects of reality that their living form never understood. Temporarily they get a drop in ego, and get to see behind the curtain. This rush of power might make them want to stay in a spiritual form, they may not want to return to a mortal host because they know that their minds will become trapped in the illusion. They've taken one step forward and don't want to take two steps back when they return to the mortal world. On the other hand, while they are in spirit form, a character's ego remains static...they need a mortal form if they hope to transcend any further.

Stay with some extra power...or go back, lose that power, and lose a bit more for the chance to regain far more in the long run.

The dead (and those in the astral plane), can probably all see each other, but the same restrictions would apply on who can affect what. The lower your ego, the more powers you have, and the more you are able to resist the effects of lesser beings.

Just some ideas...

V

[whoknowswhynot]

 

Having higher ego shouldn't necessarily mean being more evil, having lower ego and stronger connection to the universal whole doesn't mean goodness. Even from a buddhist standpoint, a powerful being can use their knowledge for good or for evil, but if they choose either path they are making decisions that could lock them into the illusion of samsara.

I have had intentions of including "dark gods" (not unlike the cthulhu mythos) in OMNI because their Ego would be really low and their actions would appear "evil" or wrong, but are acually not.

Perhaps when a character transcends, they step beyond the confines of good and evil, and this is the actual reason why they no longer seem to care.

Absolutely!  This should happen around level 7.

Ego 10 is the smallest layer and you have little perception of what has you trapped, you can't effect much of anything except within your own mind. Maybe with some focus or expenditure of will you can move. Ego 9 lets you perceive the world, but you know that you're a lackey and some of your thoughts still aren't your own, you can move but trying to act on your own requires focus and effort. Gradually you ascend the ranks, and you achieve more ability to manipulate the world. Beyond the levels equivalent to most people, you might start to manipulate the world in ways that seem supernatural or magical, for you this is just a better understanding of the universal principles. Lesser minds don't understand it though.

V, you know exactly where I am going with this!

Thank you SO MUCH for the awesome ideas!  I love them all!

[Vulpinoid]

I have had intentions of including "dark gods" (not unlike the cthulhu mythos) in OMNI because their Ego would be really low and their actions would appear "evil" or wrong, but are acually not.

Now here's the bit that's got me a bit confused. Does your term EGO reflect an internal or external thing?

Does the scale determine how well the individual has transcended the illusion of reality?

Or does it determine how other people view the individuals level of transcendence?

Dark Gods and esoteric beings who blaspheme on the edge of reality may have very low EGO scores, after all, they exist so far beyond our understanding of reality that we simply cannot comprehend them. These beings may assist mortals to transcend their EGO, but in exchange for doing so they cause mutations, curses and other "witches marks".

From an outsiders perspective, these beings could be viewed as locking mortals into new illusions of EGO, but those who have developed beyond their EGO in other ways may see them for what they are...manipulators at an even higher level of being.

I'm working on the assumption that there's a bit of a Buddhist undercurrent in the system (although deep Kabbalah has some strangely similar parallels). If you do things to further yourself at the expense of others, your EGO grows and you become more locked into the illusion of reality (samsara). If you do things to help others, with no agenda of self improvement then your EGO decreases and you develop on the path to transcendence.

Perhaps the dark gods exist on the edge of reality, always at risk of transcending and fading away into oblivion. They might be making the conscious choice to further themselves to avoid transcending to the uppermost level, their EGO is virtually zero, and their lack of a body is trying to make them fade away, but through developing worshippers and feeding their baser instincts (greedy, gluttony, vengeance) they retain their place in the scheme of things.

Other beings would exist like the boddhisatvas, existing on the cusp of true transcendence, but retaining their true selves to assist others in their path of enlightenment. Such beings could appear as angels and benevolent gods.

If you were going to develop an alignment system for this game, I'd avoid "Good" and "Evil", these are the concerns of lesser mortal minds. Instead I'd go a two-fold axis with the characters intention for their own EGO, compared to their intention for the EGO of those around them.

Truly Benevolent - Reduce the EGO in others, with no concern for the self.
Truly Malevolent - Increase the EGO in others, with no concern for the self.
Selfish - Increase the EGO in the self, with no concern for others.
Selfless - Decrease the EGO in the self, with no concern for others.
Manipulative - Reduce your own EGO at the expense of increasing others (there's only so far this path could lead).
Mentor - Increase your own EGO for the chance to reduce the EGO of your students.

You get the idea.

Once I'm fully clear where you see EGO fitting into the paradigm of your game, I'll try to offer a few more ideas.

V

[whoknowswhynot]

I'm working on the assumption that there's a bit of a Buddhist undercurrent in the system (although deep Kabbalah has some strangely similar parallels). If you do things to further yourself at the expense of others, your EGO grows and you become more locked into the illusion of reality (samsara). If you do things to help others, with no agenda of self improvement then your EGO decreases and you develop on the path to transcendence.

That is exactly where I am going with the game as a whole!

Ego is the main "stat", because it is used for action and reactions, luck, sanity, willpower etc.  It is the base for everything in the game.  Everything else is just a modifier (Illusion) of sorts.

The whole ego thing comes from my belief that seemingly bad things happen to seemingly good people because they are concerned about the welfare of others.  A "master" knows that each person is completely responsible for their own situation.  The master cares not.  That is why the master succeeds in life and this is why the criminal gets away.

Ego is an internal thing, a measure of a character's Fear, Maya, Samsara, or whatever you wish( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_(illusion) .  I am not religious, but I have studied comparative religions and sort of determined that they are mostly all about the same thing, just differing ways to eliminate ego.

Ego is created by having a body, a name, a personality (each trait would be different), fears, likes, dislikes, beliefs, trauma, concern for others, skills, pride, a will to act at all, etc.  The more of these one has, the higher their ego and the worse life seems to them.  Of course, losing the body would presumably be one of the last few things...

I can't say that I have found favorable a way to include physicality in with this without adding extra stats so I added them but they are intentionally rather abstract.  I am EXTREMELY OPEN to ideas about physicality because I am not too pleased with mine so far.  I hate stats, though and have gained 1 ego point for this.  I want a simple character sheet with mostly room for descriptions.  No huge list of skills and skill ratings, and modifiers etc.

Another point that has been brought up before...Combat rules in a game about enlightenment?
I still want there to be player characters that start out with the assumption that this is a game like CoC, Cyberpunk, D&D or whatever.  That is the reason that I am also working on rules for fighting that fit with the theme.  I don't want to limit aggressive actions in the game just because it is a game that ultimately promotes peace.  I want to allow these actions so that the reactions can provide the encouragement towards peace, love and expanded awareness.


The ego level descriptions are more or less guidelines, because not everyone with a level 7 is going to be a "punk rocker" and not everyone at level 6 is going to be "Carrie" or "Jonathan Livingston Seagull".  I guess this makes the game a little more free form.  That said, Ego level 8 people will probably always try to kill ego level 5 people, as in "Illusions", where Donald Shimoda was killed by a shotgun blast from an angry Christian who thought he was saving the world from evil.  At least if they fail some kind of reaction roll or something...

I hope this helps you help me!!!

[Vulpinoid]

Another point that has been brought up before...Combat rules in a game about enlightenment?

That's a tough call.

I'd have to consider the two better "enlightenment" game systems I'm immediately familiar with (both from White Wolf): Kindred of the East and Mage: the Ascension (which is heavily based on Robert Pirsig's two metaphysical tomes "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" and "Lila"....don't get me started on the NWOD equivalent Mage the Awakening...all magic coming from Atlantis give me a f%^king break...but that's another rant...)

Both of these systems grant more power to the individual based on their level of metaphysical enlightenment, unlike your ideas though, neither of these systems really have an impact of the motivations of the characters, there is no interlinked "humanity" scale connecting to the power level. You'd probably be after some kind of motivation threshold that gets tougher as the characters get gradually more enlightened. It becomes harder to think for yourself as your concerns become more focused on the outer world.

Where parallels might lie is the concept that in each of these games there is a conflict of ideas and belief systems. One is a game about paradigms at war, the other involves a conflict of elements, religions and immortal dynasties. Either of these options has potential, but both have been explored...some would argue that they aren't explored well, I'd just say that they don't quite explore the right things when trying to develop a metaphysical play context. They each focus on the external aspects, behaviours and props associated with different belief patterns rather than the motivating forces behind those patterns. They provide a great historical context (whether quasi-reality based, or purely based on the game's mythology).

Combat in both of these systems can be very ritualized...either the ritual combat of mystic spellplay, or the dance of martial arts. I'd consider that in both forms of combat, the character is putting their belief on the line, their faith in a concept beyond themselves. One person proves the superiority of their combat technique, another fights for their god, another fights purely for material gain. 

Such fighting has immediate consequences for both the protagonist and the antagonist. These consequences for the loser might be loss of face, loss of will, loss of limbs (or other injury). The consequences for the winner might be material gain, restored faith in their god or acceptance that their combat skill is superior. I'd use a system where it all depends what they were putting on the line for their side of the challenge.

I'd also consider it a good idea to make sure a player can adequately show that the thing they are putting on the line is relevant to the conflict at hand. There's not much point going into physical conflict and putting your faith in Aphrodite on the line in this conflict, how much is a goddess of love going to help you in a round of fisticuffs??

Which sort of leads me to the descriptive aspects suitable for a character...

Beyond their EGO, characters could be described in terms of the aspects they've placed their beliefs in. The closer you are to pure EGO, the more these aspects would be focused on working within the rules of the illusion...physical strength, combat skills, athletics, medicine, science, etc. The closer you are to transcendence, the more these aspects would focus on working with the rules of the illusion (or working around them)...mystic awareness, psychic powers, faith in a deity, magic, etc.

You could keep it simple, and allow a player to add a flat modifier to their EGO rolls if they can apply one of these aspects to the challenge at hand. You could make these aspects developable skills in their own right.

Players go into conflict against one another using their EGO, then add bonuses based on their relevant aspects in the context of the conflict occurring.

At this stage all I can do is offer some possible suggestions...but the topic has definitely veered away from the astral plane concept where it started. So we might consider starting a new one.

V

[whoknowswhynot]

True!  Hey the suggestions kick A--!  I am going to consider all of these if that's ok and I plan to consider the "astral" world as interpenetrating the physical world, but not as 11 separate worlds.  That was my problem.  You cleared that up with the onion analogy.  Thank you!  One world, 11 LOCATIONS like a big fantasy world map with places on it where beings of the same frequency congregate.  This has helped tremendously and your suggestions have seeded my mind with MORE ideas.  I have a good feeling about OMNI!