Dark-Gritty feel and Rules Light?

[jjkahrs]

I'm running into a bit of a creative clash while developing my current RPG idea. The setting is a dark and gritty superhero setting much like Dark Knight Returns or Stormwatch: Team Achilles. A very ugly and brutal tone that I want reflected in the rules. At the same time I'm working on a mechanic system that's simple and rules light (done after talking with people from several of my gaming groups).

My question is, are the 2 mutaly exclusive? Is it possible to have rules that are somewhat adaptive and fluid and still perserve a tone of something darker? The more I try to build a system based on heroic qualities in the context of ugly realities, the more I'm finding that the freeform rules would seem better suited for Superman happy shiny game.

-JJ Kahrs

P.S. Kudos to the regulars here. I'm usually a reluctant poster but the supportive and constructive atmosphere here has been very welcoming to outsiders.

[Ring Kichard]

1. How about asking the players to make the abstract results concrete? An abstract damage mechanic - hit points or something even more simple - is used for resolution, but the players then are given the task of explaining exactly what anatomical damage has occurred, from a knife severed tendon to the impact of a hollow point round on the liver.

2. Just because it's abstract doesn't mean it has to be friendly. I've got an abstract rule for guns in my game: if you get shot, you're either unaffected or you're bleeding on the turf begging for morphine.  More likely than not, you're sucking dirt in through your chest.

3. Depending on what kind of mechanics you want to use, this seems like a great opportunity force the players into making tough choices. "You can add another die to your roll, now, but another innocent person is going to die from smoke inhalation."

[Ron Edwards]

Hi JJ,

I'm glad you like it here, and that you feel comfortable posting.

My straightforward answer to your question is that atmosphere and theme, that is, your "gritty/awful" -ness, is not a function of rules-density. If you want to encourage a particular atmosphere and general topic (grim people-stories, harsh consequences), then structure your reward system and your mechanics outcomes to support that goal. How complex the process of play is, is an independent issue.

Just as a thought-experiment, hop over to the Random Order Creations Forum and check out the game, The Questing Beast. You can play that game astoundingly dark and horrifying, if you'd like, and the mechanics will support the group in doing so. However, they are very elegant and simple mechanics.

Best,
Ron

[jjkahrs]

2. Just because it's abstract doesn't mean it has to be friendly. I've got an abstract rule for guns in my game: if you get shot, you're either unaffected or you're bleeding on the turf begging for morphine.  More likely than not, you're sucking dirt in through your chest.

3. Depending on what kind of mechanics you want to use, this seems like a great opportunity force the players into making tough choices. "You can add another die to your roll, now, but another innocent person is going to die from smoke inhalation."

Excellent suggestions, Ring. I'm a bit relucant about making things _too_ lethal, though. As a rule I dislike PC death unless the character did something stupid or wreckless that invited it. You hit on something else that I really should be concentrating more on though: Consequences. The tone I'm trying to set can be enforced by making sure that characters are accountable for their actions. Thanks for the input.

-JJ Kahrs

[jjkahrs]

My straightforward answer to your question is that atmosphere and theme, that is, your "gritty/awful" -ness, is not a function of rules-density. If you want to encourage a particular atmosphere and general topic (grim people-stories, harsh consequences), then structure your reward system and your mechanics outcomes to support that goal. How complex the process of play is, is an independent issue.

Points taken. Based on what you and Ring have suggested, I think I'm going to go back and make a list of theme goals. This will give me something to evaluate the mechanics against and ask "Does this futher my goals for the game".

Just as a thought-experiment, hop over to the Random Order Creations Forum and check out the game, The Questing Beast. You can play that game astoundingly dark and horrifying, if you'd like, and the mechanics will support the group in doing so. However, they are very elegant and simple mechanics.

Amazing. I read through The Questing Beast and it helped a lot in organizing my thoughts. There are some very very good ideas and concepts in that game. Thanks for the food for thought.

-JJ Kahrs

[Victor Gijsbers]

Apart from rules, the game you write will have a certain _feel_ to it. The title, the lay-out, the style of writing, the examples... make them dark and gritty and you can turn a fairly mainstream set of rules into a dark and gritty game. (Obviously, rules which _actively_ support your atmosphere are even better.)

[Bankuei]

Dark and gritty isn't just about lethality or reality.  Look at Sin City by Frank Miller or the Dark Knight Returns for good examples of "Heroic" realism but gritty story.  

What truly defines that genre is the level of cynicism, selfishness, corruption, and basic lack of idealism in the characters.  Everyone has an ulterior motive(or is that what you're suppposed to believe?), and a few things up their sleeves(and boots), and nothing can be relied upon or trusted.  Corruption, abuse of power, human weakness, greed, this is what drives that sort of story.

Rules light or heavy doesn't make the story, you do.

Chris

[Jake Norwood]

Excellent suggestions, Ring. I'm a bit relucant about making things _too_ lethal, though. As a rule I dislike PC death unless the character did something stupid or wreckless that invited it. You hit on something else that I really should be concentrating more on though: Consequences. The tone I'm trying to set can be enforced by making sure that characters are accountable for their actions. Thanks for the input

Create or use a system that makes player decisions more important than die-rolls. The Riddle of Steel (shameless plug), Sorcerer, and many diceless systems do this (I was just thinking of using Nobilis for a gritty super-hero flick, in fact). You can get really lethal and really gritty without killing everyone off. I would avoid hitpoints, though, as they tend to remove connections in the players mind to the "reality" of a wound. Wound-levels (shadowrun, white-wolf, little fears) simulate this better without a TROS or Rolemaster set of tables.

Jake

[jjkahrs]

Apart from rules, the game you write will have a certain _feel_ to it. The title, the lay-out, the style of writing, the examples... make them dark and gritty and you can turn a fairly mainstream set of rules into a dark and gritty game. (Obviously, rules which _actively_ support your atmosphere are even better.)

You're right. All of those elements help the reader get the atmosphere you're trying to impart. I think the mechanics of the game should ecourage that same atmosphere as well. The book is the knowledge, but actual gameplay is a process removed from the medium. I'd like the feel I'm aiming for to be re-enforced by the rules.

I also admit that my opinion is a bit colored by past RPGs whose setting was self-proclaimed drama while the mechanics were more predisposed to hack-n-slash powergaming. Because of some of the elements in my setting (superpowers, masked vigilantes, etc) I want to be extra sure that gameplay doesn't devolve into an episode of the Superfriends.

-JJ Kahrs

[damion]

Yep, grittyness is in the rules.

I'll make a addion to Jakes comments.

Wound levels have the problem that there is usually some
way to avoid damage, thus you can end up with charachters who can just suck riduclious amounts of damage.(because you take damage, or you don't--these char's don't) The ShadowRun troll surviving the hit from the light naval gun comes to mind.
        A hit point system gives more of a chipping-away feel. Anyone can be felled with enough hits.

Hybrid systems(EarthDawn, SWD20?) are possible, but I thought I'd mention it.

[jjkahrs]

Dark and gritty isn't just about lethality or reality.  Look at Sin City by Frank Miller or the Dark Knight Returns for good examples of "Heroic" realism but gritty story.  

Good point.

What truly defines that genre is the level of cynicism, selfishness, corruption, and basic lack of idealism in the characters.  Everyone has an ulterior motive(or is that what you're suppposed to believe?), and a few things up their sleeves(and boots), and nothing can be relied upon or trusted.  Corruption, abuse of power, human weakness, greed, this is what drives that sort of story.

Rules light or heavy doesn't make the story, you do.

Chris

I've been playing up the heroic aspects of the characters. Perhaps I should give more attention to the darker aspects to give more dichotomy. What good are heroics without the hopelessness of circumstances and the ugliness of humanity contrast it against, right? Danke.

-JJ Kahrs

[jjkahrs]

Create or use a system that makes player decisions more important than die-rolls. The Riddle of Steel (shameless plug), Sorcerer, and many diceless systems do this (I was just thinking of using Nobilis for a gritty super-hero flick, in fact). You can get really lethal and really gritty without killing everyone off. I would avoid hitpoints, though, as they tend to remove connections in the players mind to the "reality" of a wound. Wound-levels (shadowrun, white-wolf, little fears) simulate this better without a TROS or Rolemaster set of tables.

Jake

I'll be sure to check out the games you suggested. As a rule I dislike hitpoints, but I'm not so sure if wound levels in the traditional sense are the way to go either. It's something I'm still kicking around. You're dead on though about the player decisions being more important than die rolls. If the PCs are going to hell, I want them to know for certain that they paved the way to it themselves rather than a small plastic polygon.

-JJ Kahrs

[jjkahrs]

Wound levels have the problem that there is usually some
way to avoid damage, thus you can end up with charachters who can just suck riduclious amounts of damage.(because you take damage, or you don't--these char's don't) The ShadowRun troll surviving the hit from the light naval gun comes to mind.

Yes. Soak is something I'm slowly coming to dispise more and more. IMHO, hit points aren't any better. Both foster a "I'll just walk through the minefield. I can take it" type of environment which riddles with bullets what suspension of disbelief you've established.

-JJ Kahrs

[Paul Czege]

Hey guys,

...riddles with bullets what suspension of disbelief you've established.

Check out Gordon's http://indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=13109㌵">third post to the Drawing Conclusions in Public thread for the beginning of a fairly substantive series of posts on suspension of disbelief.

Paul

[Bankuei]

I've been playing up the heroic aspects of the characters. Perhaps I should give more attention to the darker aspects to give more dichotomy. What good are heroics without the hopelessness of circumstances and the ugliness of humanity contrast it against, right?

The PC's can be heroic, its just that everyone else probably isn't.  That's not to say that even the most vile of characters wouldn't have a good point, but that I define heros as folks who overcome their flaws, and villians as those whose flaws overcome them.  Even heroic traits are often a flaw in these stories because they always seem to set you up for trouble.

For dark film noir type stories, its always about self interest over everything else as the standard.  The only question is what the hell is Mr. X or Ms. Y's motivation?  Self interest varies based on what that particular "self" is interested in.

Joey the Rat is desperate for that money, is he a junkie? Does he owe Mr. Big?  Has he finally gotten a spine now that the pot is full?  Does his mom need that operation tomorrow?  Or is Cynthia manipulating the schmoe as a fall guy?  

Chris