Triumph System -- please give feedback

[vgunn]

Okay, I think that I might have finally settled on a system that I would like to develop. I appreciate all of the feedback from previous threads I've posted.  My goal is for it to be a generic system that can be tweaked to fit a number of different settings. So here is what I am looking at, it is still in its infancy but I do think there is potential. Again, I am not married to much at this point, so suggestions/revisions are most welcome.

Base Design:

Characters have Traits and Talents.

Traits can be genre-specific, however there are always only three of them. As a generic example we will use Mind, Body and Spirit. Characters have X points to divide among the three traits. There must be at least one point in each Trait.

Characters have X points to spend for Talents. There will be a broad list of Talents for a character, however any Talent not listed can be created (I want to keep this fairly freeform). Talents are rated from 1-6. If a character does not have the required Talent for a task (or need additional d6), then they may “burn” a Trait point in order to attempt the Task.

The system uses Tasks and Tests. Tasks are any actions which use a  Talent. Tests work more like “saves” and use Traits.

Base Resolution:

PC rolls against their own Talent when attempting an action.

Example: Character A has a Stealth Talent of 5. The player must get at least five successes.

Roll d6 = Talent rating, so Character A gets 5d6.

Roll and read each dice as 1=0 success; 2-5=1 success; 6=2 successes.

Character A rolls a 3, 2, 4, 1, 6 for a total of 5 successes and the Task is successful.

In an opposed Task the PC must beat the opponent's Talent rating, using their own appropriate Talent.

Character A attacks Character B using his Sword Talent of 3, Character B has a Defend Talent of 4.

Character A rolls 6, 2, 3 which equals 4. Thenumber of successes matched the opponent's Talent rating, however ties in opposed Tasks go to the defender and therefore the attempt was unsuccessful.

Modifiers add or substract d6, but the skill rating does not change (except as the player gains experience).

Since the way the design scales, seems like it can actually be more difficult to succeed with a higher Talent rating. However this is offset by a Confidence pool. Confidence points can be gained whenever a Task is successful AND a 6 has come up on one or more of the d6. Each 6 rolled equals 1 Confidence point in the pool. Every Confidence point can be exhanged for a d6 that can be used later. The maximum number of the Confidence pool for each player is 6. Should they gain more than this, it can be converted to an XP point OR used to refresh a Talent/Trait which has been reduced.

There are couple other options also available where bonus points can be put into a Trust Pool which other characters can use later (wondering if I should cap this pool at 6 like Confidence, or perhaps make the max 12). Or points can be used to refresh a reduce Talent rating (see below).

Every time a 1 is rolled, the Talent rating is temporarilly reduced by 1d6. This will model fatigue. The rate at which the Talent is refreshed depends on the Task. The rating can be immediately refeshed with bonus points from rolling a 6 (as just mentioned above). So a player can choose to to put a point back into the Talent, rather than putting it in the Confidence or Trust Pool.

Talents ratings as mentioned will refresh. The rate is dependent on the type of Task and the Talent used. What you do not get back immediately, you get back at a later time without burning a Trait point or using  Doom points. I think this does provide a way to simulate fatigue or doubt within the game. Swinging a sword for example will eventually wear you out, this is especially the case if you are not actually physically harming your opponent. While successes build Confidence and increase adrenaline. Trying to crack a computer's password can be taxing on the mind and would for a period of time cause doubt and uncertainty, this is simulated with the reduction of the Talent rating.

Characters will receive XP when they FAIL in attempting a Task. In a failed Task attempt, each d6 with a 1 will count as one XP. I think that we learn by our mistakes and that we get better from them -- thus the way my XP is designed to work.

If a character fails a Task and the number of d6 with a 1 are greater than the failure amount then a serious mishap has occurred (not sure what just yet).

Now when it comes to a Test the mechanic different. Tests are examples of things which are mostly harmful to a character. For instance a character that is hit by a weapon (after armor soaks and so on) needs to prevent the wound. A Body Test would need to be rolled. Again, Trait points (not 'burned') will refresh in most instances. Wounds heal, but can take time and a character does become more vulnerable while they are hurt. Taking a second gut shot from a sword (if it did not kill them already) should be much tougher the second time around..

Roll d6 equal to current Trait level and TOTAL the amount (players can also roll d6 from any Confidence/Trust points – but it is counted as 0=1; 2-5=1; 6=2 as in the Talent mechanic). For example, a character with 4 in Mind rolls 4d6 getting 2,6,4,3 for a total of 15).

The total is then measured against a Threshold for the Test. If the Test is failed. for every 3 points below the Threshold then the Trait score is reduced by 1. Example: 3 points in Mind are rolled and totaled against a Sanity Test. Threshhold for the Test is 12. The player rolls a 5, 1, 4 for a total of 10. They fail by 1 margin (1 for every 3 points). Their Trait score is temporarily reduced by 1 and suffer any other consequences. Depending on the type of Test a character can go insane, be corrupted or possibly die if any of their Trait scores are reduced to zero (or maybe anything below zero).

As for succeeding a Test, I am not sure what bonus I should give, though it should probably scale the same way 1 bonus for every 3 successes above the Threshold.

Characters can 'burn' Trait points if they are in a dire situation. However, it must be done with extreme caution since once the points are burned are permanently lost. However, it is possible that by spending a Doom point the Trait can be refreshed. All characters begin the game with 12 Doom points. Once they reach zero, they have met their final fate and are removed from the game.

I will give a quick example of a combat situation which shows both a Task and a Test.

Character A with a Sword Talent of 5 attacks Character B. It is an opposed Task, Character B has a Dodge Talent of 3. Character will roll 5d6, needing to get 4 or more successes to hit Character B. A 6,6,2,4,1 are rolled for a total of 5 this is two successes. The successes are multiplied by the weapon damage, in this case the Sword has a 7. 2x7=14. Character B was armor of 3 which soaks and reduces the number to 11. This number becomes the Threshold for the Trauma Test which Character B must take for hitting hit by the sword.

Character B has a Body Trait score of 3. Roll 3d6 and total amount. If the total is higher than the Threshold, then the Test is successful and no damage is taken. However, lets say character B rolled a 3,2,3 which totals 8. 11 [Threshold] – 8 = 3. This means that the Body Trait for Character B is reduced by 1 point and is now a 2, making it more difficult to survive should he be hit again.

On the other side Character A rolled two sixes and a one. The one will reduce his Talent rating by one (one less d6 can be rolled), however this is more than offset by the sixes. One 6 is used to refresh the Talent and the other 6 can go into the Confidence pool.

[JB Mannon]

I like what I see so far.  The way the dice work you have a system that is weighted very heavily toward success with rare failures.  I like the building of Confidence and the learning from failure. 

What kind of stories are you hoping people will tell with this system?  You said that it was portable to many different settings and I can see that that is true but what genre or world view are you trying to emulate.  To me this seems like a very cheery system when the game starts with the players almost at god-like abilities but as the game goes on every conflict will be more likely to lose and cost the players more in the long run.  I am affraid of the turteling that may occure as play progresses as players fear to even go shoping becouse they may lose a haggleing check and be saddled with ever more oppressing XP.  I

f you reversed the gain of XP and Confidence (likely to need to be renamed to do this perhaps Determination) then each failure would represent a chance to win the next time around.  You may also want to decresse the dice pools rather than incressing them which would allow players an incressing chance at success.  That would neccessitate that you set a starting pool for each Talent (perhaps based on one what ever Trait it is based on).  Any way just some thoughts, hope they help.

[Redeemer]

I'm just a little to worried that it is overly complex and involves to much math. It looks like you are just taking a standard dice pool concept (SR 4th Ed comes to mind) and adding more complexity to it.

When your doing a quick playtest with it how long does it take to roll to see if you succsed at a task (from "this is what I want to do" until "this is what happens")? How long is your standard combat in real time? How many rounds are there in a standard combat?

To test out the base mechanic for Redeemer I did the folling time checks.

How long to roll for a simple test.
How long to roll for a complex/extended test.
How long to roll for a combat round.
How long did it take for a one on one combat.
How long did it take for a one on two combat.
How long did it take for a one on five combat.
How long did it take for a four on four combat.
How long did it take for a four on ten combat.

With those numbers I was able to figure out if I need to slim down my system. If a four on ten combat takes an hour to play out, how often will they happen in your game? How does it affect the Gms ability to control pacing?

Just some thoughts.

[vgunn]

How long is your standard combat in real time? How many rounds are there in a standard combat?

Good questions. I want combat to play out fairly quick, however not without some options. I am still trying to decide how that should ultimately play out.

As for rounds, again I am not sure. I do prefer something closer to Riddle of Steel or HEX where it is not just the standard you hit and then I hit type of combat. I want something that if a player can get the upper hand, then they can keep it.

JB brought up Detemination as word rather than Confidence and I do like this. It may play a part in Initiative, where players must blind bid Determination to see who can go on the offensive first. If neither has any Determination, then use Combat Sense Talent or something like that.

To test out the base mechanic for Redeemer I did the folling time checks.

How long to roll for a simple test.
How long to roll for a complex/extended test.
How long to roll for a combat round.
How long did it take for a one on one combat.
How long did it take for a one on two combat.
How long did it take for a one on five combat.
How long did it take for a four on four combat.
How long did it take for a four on ten combat.

With those numbers I was able to figure out if I need to slim down my system. If a four on ten combat takes an hour to play out, how often will they happen in your game? How does it affect the Gms ability to control pacing?

Just some thoughts.

A very good suggestion as well.

[vgunn]

I like what I see so far.  The way the dice work you have a system that is weighted very heavily toward success with rare failures.  I like the building of Confidence and the learning from failure.

Right. I think that is where situational modifiers can come to counter-balance this.

You could have a scale something like this:

Impossible: -3d6
Difficult: -2d6
Hard: -1d6
Normal: 0d6 no modifier
Easy: +1d6
Routine: +2d6

What kind of stories are you hoping people will tell with this system?

Fun, fast and fairly realistic is a goal. More simulationist rather than narrative. Though I think that option should be available. For instance someone who describes an action or strongly role-plays a situation can change a d6 from a 0 to a 1; or taking a 1 to a 2.

You said that it was portable to many different settings and I can see that that is true but what genre or world view are you trying to emulate.

Very I'd like to have did possible for a fantasy setting such as Middle-earth. I think the Trust pool could work very well for the Fellowship as an example.

Another is something like Cold City. Change the Traits from Mind, Body and Soul to Action, Influence and Reason. Make a list of Talents applicable to the genre and you are good to go.

To me this seems like a very cheery system when the game starts with the players almost at god-like abilities but as the game goes on every conflict will be more likely to lose and cost the players more in the long run.

Yes I think that is possible and not altogether a bad thing. I think that their abilities can be tempered with a low number of Trait and Talent starting points. Perhaps giving a player 36 points to begin the game. They must not only buy Talents, but also spend them on Traits. Min-maxing could be very dangerous for a character. I think wearing down as the game progresses models real life in some ways. Rarely do people stay on the top forever. Look at Frodo as an example. Though he experienced so much during his quest and was no doubt seasoned by his return, he was also weary and ready to leave the Shire -- a place he loved so much.

I am affraid of the turteling that may occure as play progresses as players fear to even go shoping becouse they may lose a haggleing check and be saddled with ever more oppressing XP.

Please explain this to me, I am a bit unclear. XP is always positive -- you use XP to increase Talents in the game. 

I do like the word Determination over Confidence for some settings.

[soundmasterj]

I hope you don´t take offensive in this, but you´re not doing that good in promoting how GOOD your dice are. What exactly makes your rules better than any other simulationist design? What´s special here? What kind of game do your dice promote that no other dice promote as well as yours do?

Basically, I´m repeating JBMannons question but with more teeth because your answer was kind of a dodge. "Yeah, I think it could work in this scenario" isn´t exactly good marketing. In what scenario would it do wonders and why?

[vgunn]

I hope you don´t take offensive in this, but you´re not doing that good in promoting how GOOD your dice are. What exactly makes your rules better than any other simulationist design? What´s special here? What kind of game do your dice promote that no other dice promote as well as yours do?

No offense at all! I am not sure that it is any better than others out there. Certainly that is not a goal of mine. Really I think it is a bit difference. Allows for both randomness and resource allocation. Also I think it can model fatigue (mental or physical) without having to resort to an extra stat. I also believe that the way XP works is different. How many games offer XP that is gained through failure? However, it mimics what often occurs in life and that is try, try again until you succeed.

This is just the first thoughts, I know there will have to be some alterations to make it work. Thats why I am posting it here, so I can get help from you and others.

-- Val

[soundmasterj]

I´m not talking about it possibly needing alterations to making it work, I want to know what it´s working FOR.
We more or less need to know what you are after to judge those dice: will they do what you want them to?

Right now, what I see them promoting is characters getting more effective, but also more dependent the more rewards they earn. That´s some potential in need of exploting.

[vgunn]

Right now, what I see them promoting is characters getting more effective, but also more dependent the more rewards they earn. That´s some potential in need of exploting.

Interesting. My goal with the dice are to provide a bit of randomness to what can be essentially a diceless system. I want fluidness in a rather static environment.

Now to be honest, I hadn't really given much thought to the fact that the higher the Talent rating, the more difficult to succeed--hence rewarding low rated characters. I assumed that the chance to get more Confidence points more offsets this. I am not sure if I am right.

I do like how you explained power vs reward dependency and can see this working.

There is another way I could go and that is in unopposed Task you roll d6 equal to your Talent rating against a target number reflecting the difficulty of the task.

Difficulty Numbers:

1 Routine
2 Easy
3 Normal
4 Hard
5 Difficult
6 Exteme

I can see this working just as well, if not better. But I'd like to see if I can my get original idea a chance.

[soundmasterj]

Well, for wanting to go diceless, you surely have a lot of complicated rules involved. A dynamic situation, in my opinion, doesn´t result from randomness, it results from the exact opposite: determination to escalation. It results from the situation created before you even think about rolling dice. If you set up two characters going against each other with no chance to back down, if you make sure each character HAS to make a choice between two wrongs (or two rights; just not one wrong one right, because that´s easy), the dynamic is fluid.
If you just want randomness, just roll 2d10, substract lower from higher, if under talent: success or something. Or D20. Or 3d6 roll-under. Or whatever. Flip coins!

But let´s  imagine what your game might be good for. Let´s say, the characters are vampires. Confidence becomes Sadism. Vampires need to hurt more the higher in power they get; however, it only works if they urt those they love. When rolling dice, they may decide do discard any unwanted ones. Every 6 not discarded means they hurt a loved one. Tada, instant conflict between power and responsibility; if I want more potency, I know I WILL hurt more of those I love. If I decide not to hurt, I lose if my talents are high because my Sadism pool is empty, but I still need more dice.
See how now your dice not only create randomness (what a lot of dice are ding), but models a special kind of conflict?

[vgunn]

Well, for wanting to go diceless, you surely have a lot of complicated rules involved.

I never said I wanted to go diceless. I like the resource management aspects of such games as Nobilis and MURPG and want to reign in the randomness that can come from various more traditional RPGs. Something in between. Dying Earth RPG is a good example of this, along with the more recent Gumshoe system. However, I am not a big fan of re-rolling.

But let´s  imagine what your game might be good for. Let´s say, the characters are vampires. Confidence becomes Sadism. Vampires need to hurt more the higher in power they get; however, it only works if they urt those they love. When rolling dice, they may decide do discard any unwanted ones. Every 6 not discarded means they hurt a loved one. Tada, instant conflict between power and responsibility; if I want more potency, I know I WILL hurt more of those I love. If I decide not to hurt, I lose if my talents are high because my Sadism pool is empty, but I still need more dice.
See how now your dice not only create randomness (what a lot of dice are ding), but models a special kind of conflict?

This is great. Absolutely love the idea. But how would can this be modeled for a generic system-without a specific setting in mind? How would you apply the system to say a 1930's pulp/noir setting for instance?

I really appreciate the feedback. It is very helpful!

-- Val

[JB Mannon]

I am affraid of the turteling that may occure as play progresses as players fear to even go shoping becouse they may lose a haggleing check and be saddled with ever more oppressing XP.

Please explain this to me, I am a bit unclear. XP is always positive -- you use XP to increase Talents in the game. 

I do like the word Determination over Confidence for some settings.

Every time your characters gain XP the less likely it is that they will be successful in future challenges.  That makes XP bad in my oppinion.  An example is that a character with 1 in a Trait only needs one success which he can easily get even if he rolls a 1 by spending Confidence where as a character with a 7 Trait will need to spend alot more to succeed and the only way for them to gain more Confidance is to win but to win they need to use Confidance.  It is an endless downward spiral and the way that the dice are weighted toward the middle makes the players think they are winning while their resource is being slowly bled from them.

[soundmasterj]

JBMannon: what I would suggest is that when you succed with a high talent, you succed big time. Ie., on a succes, someone with Talent 1 may beat his opponent up. Someone with Talent 5 makes him explode/an eternal slave/dead without anyone noticing.
It is a VERY specific system pretty unfit for general resolution, but if applied correctly, there´s a lot of potential, I think.

Vgunn:

This is great. Absolutely love the idea. But how would can this be modeled for a generic system-without a specific setting in mind? How would you apply the system to say a 1930's pulp/noir setting for instance?

What´s the problem? Say in your pulp game, every character has two talents, "Making People talk" and "Getting away with it" (sorry, I´m not too familiar with the genre, modify appropriately) . Also, every character thinks of how his pool works, ie., how his character needs to hurt others so he keeps on working (lets steal from sorcerer and call it "Need").

My Need is drinking&abusing. The higher my talent, the better I get, the bigger I succed if I do, but the more I have to drunkenly hurt those I care for (maybe myself).

Say, my talent in "Making People Talk" is 1. I roll and succed, one 6. I want to learn who stole the old ladys´ purse. I go to a bar, talk to a few people, someone tells me a think. Afterwards, I drink up more and call up my old lover, screaming insults at her over the telephone.
Say, my talent in "Making People Talk" is 6. I want to know where Al Capone is hiding. I roll and succed, creating a lot of 6´s. I drink up like mad. I take my girl with me when I drive to where an old lawyer, even though she resists me, she wants me to give up the crime-solving buisness and stay with her. I say, I won´t stay with you, you stay with me. I run into the ld lawyer, drunkingly screaming. I point my gun at my girls´ head and scream at him, I scream: Al Capone killed my mother! So I took Al Capones daughter! Show me where Al Capone is hiding or I blast his girls´ brains out here in your fucking living room! The frightened lawyer gives in. Noting down Al Capones hiding place, I throw my girl into my car and drive there. You want to be with me?, I scream, ok, you decide where you are, but I decide what I am!
Say my Talent in "Hurting People" is 10. I want to kill Al Capone. I roll, success, lots of 6´s. What I do is I drink up like mad, I go to Al Capone, right into his hiding place, and shoot him. Afterwards, I leave. I forget my girl in the car. Next day, I get a letter. It´s from her. It´s a part of her, to be more exact. It´s her ear. I decide do drink something.

(What this game does is it makes dice decide what your character is: horrible or REALLY horrible; and players have to figure out how horrible they will go. One would need to test those, though.)

Is this apropriate? I´m not sure about the genre. Your mechanics are pretty specific and wouldn´t lend themselves to most games.

[soundmasterj]

If you´re not doing that game, I am.

[vgunn]

Say in your pulp game, every character has two talents, "Making People talk" and "Getting away with it" (sorry, I´m not too familiar with the genre, modify appropriately) . Also, every character thinks of how his pool works, ie., how his character needs to hurt others so he keeps on working (lets steal from sorcerer and call it "Need").

My Need is drinking&abusing. The higher my talent, the better I get, the bigger I succed if I do, but the more I have to drunkenly hurt those I care for (maybe myself).

Say, my talent in "Making People Talk" is 1. I roll and succed, one 6. I want to learn who stole the old ladys´ purse. I go to a bar, talk to a few people, someone tells me a think. Afterwards, I drink up more and call up my old lover, screaming insults at her over the telephone.
Say, my talent in "Making People Talk" is 6. I want to know where Al Capone is hiding. I roll and succed, creating a lot of 6´s. I drink up like mad. I take my girl with me when I drive to where an old lawyer, even though she resists me, she wants me to give up the crime-solving buisness and stay with her. I say, I won´t stay with you, you stay with me. I run into the ld lawyer, drunkingly screaming. I point my gun at my girls´ head and scream at him, I scream: Al Capone killed my mother! So I took Al Capones daughter! Show me where Al Capone is hiding or I blast his girls´ brains out here in your fucking living room! The frightened lawyer gives in. Noting down Al Capones hiding place, I throw my girl into my car and drive there. You want to be with me?, I scream, ok, you decide where you are, but I decide what I am!
Say my Talent in "Hurting People" is 10. I want to kill Al Capone. I roll, success, lots of 6´s. What I do is I drink up like mad, I go to Al Capone, right into his hiding place, and shoot him. Afterwards, I leave. I forget my girl in the car. Next day, I get a letter. It´s from her. It´s a part of her, to be more exact. It´s her ear. I decide do drink something.

(What this game does is it makes dice decide what your character is: horrible or REALLY horrible; and players have to figure out how horrible they will go. One would need to test those, though.)

Is this apropriate? I´m not sure about the genre. Your mechanics are pretty specific and wouldn´t lend themselves to most games.

Wow. Great stuff.

I wasn't even close to thinking about these types of specific applications for the system. Very interesting.

Please run wild with the idea. For me, I would like to see if it can be a more 'crunchy' game. While I don't mind rules-light, I prefer something more along the lines of Silhouette, Unisystem or HEX's Ubiquity system.