Bestiary: Print or PDF?

[Bob Richter]

I've been planning to release Of Beasts and Men in print form since the beginning, but I've been wondering if an initial release on PDF wouldn't be wiser...a lot depends on how much the whole affair is going to cost me, but I was looking for opinions from two sources:

1) Customers...would you buy it as a PDF? As Print? Which would you prefer, knowing that the PDF will cost half, but will be a beast of a download (and might be delived on CD instead)

2) PDF/Print indie publishers (Ron and Jason)...what kind of response have your PDF supplements had in comparison to your Printed core rules/supplement books?

Jake

It is my experience that PDFs get to market much faster than print. I'd suggest you sell a first edition as a PDF (and full permission to reproduce for personal use, i.e. print) and have a later edition in print. In theory, the first edition will help finance the second edition and will serve much the same function as the initial beta release of tRoS, in letting you catch errors before the second (print) edition.

Of course, I may not have any idea what I'm talking about, either. :)

[Ace]

I probably won't but a PDF version of the the Beastiary.

It would be great to get the game to market faster but the format is not usefull to me.

I don't own any portable computers and don't want the astle of printing and binding it.

Frankly since I am going to have to pay the print costs on it no matter what, I would rather pay up front and have a book.

I might buy something like "The Riddle of Gold" because it is not likely (IMO) to have a very broad market outside of hardcore collecters.

A Beastiary is a core book for most Fantasy games and as such will get a lot of use and wear and tear. That means if I printed the game I would have to print it twice.

Something like a Sorcerer mini supplement, or The Riddle of Gold won't see as much use, again IMO.

[Jake Norwood]

I'm in the same camp as a lot of you guys...I really don't like PDF's all that much unless they're under 50 pages and lightly illustrated...and the Bestiary is allready about 100 pages and is going to be heavily illustrated, and we're not done...

So print is the goal, but I also need to be realistic about what TROS is going to support. I have tremendous faith in TFOB from online "buzz" on this and other forums, but the bestiary is going to be costly (lots of art), and I need to cover my butt.

What about (and this is a question, not a suggestion) a Bestiary "subscription" or something of the like, where you got five beasties a month for a small...

ah, to hell with that.

;-D

Jake

[Brian Leybourne]

So print is the goal, but I also need to be realistic about what TROS is going to support. I have tremendous faith in TFOB from online "buzz" on this and other forums, but the bestiary is going to be costly (lots of art), and I need to cover my butt.

I'm sure it's far too little an amount to be of an use whatsoever, but for what it's worth I would be prepared to pay in advance of printing for each book at it comes out. That way you know for sure that you'll sell two copies (me and your mother *grin*) and you already have the money against the print cost.

OK, as I said I'm not unrealistic enough to think that that would really help much, but if enough people other than me... etc.

Brian.

[Valamir]

That's not a bad idea Brian.  ALOT of wargame companies (GMT and Columbia especially) have an extensive preorder plan.

Both companies have an extensive list of games in various stages of completion (some 100% ready to produce), but they don't actually run them until they get a set number of preorders (typically 250-500 for the board games).  Until then the game just sits on the website as a "Future Release".  If the interest isn't there it doesn't get done.

Also, alot of these companies have an "autoship" policy (including Avalanche).  You as the customer agree to buy every game they make (or every game from a certain line), and as soon as a new one is released it gets shipped to you at a nice discount (auto ship people are automatically considered on the preorder list too).

Some combination of these plans could work well in a RPG environment, especially for a game with a solid following.  Perhaps in combination with a PDF release.  Preorder the book for $25, pay $10 now, $15 when it ships.  It ships when X number of preorders are recieved and the book actually goes to press, in the meantime enjoy this pdf download while you wait.

[Durgil]

When it comes to good RPGs (such as TRoS!), I'm like a kid in early December who can't wait for Christmas.  I want everything yesterday, and I see PDFs as a way of cutting down on the wait time.  I have DSL so the download times and disconnects aren't as bad with me as they would be for someone with dial-up, plus I have access, through work, to some pretty good laser printers, and I can use my own higher than normal weight paper.  I am also a big HarnMaster/World enthusiast (which doesn’t does nothing for my small amount of patience), so I’m accustom to having the majority of that material placed in sheet protectors and kept in three-ring binders or on the hard drive of my computer.

Like others have pointed out before me on this post though, this sounds like something that is quite a bit larger than what I’m used to doing.  I guarantee that I’d buy it, but it sounds like a daunting task.

[Durgil]

but for what it's worth I would be prepared to pay in advance of printing for each book at it comes out. That way you know for sure that you'll sell two copies (me and your mother *grin*) and you already have the money against the print cost.

OK, as I said I'm not unrealistic enough to think that that would really help much, but if enough people other than me... etc.

Brian.

I'm with Brian here as well on this pay in advance thing.

[Lance D. Allen]

Count on me to buy any "core-books" for TRoS, Jake. I fully intend to own, one way or the other, the second printing of the main book (in addition to the first printing copy which I already own) TFoB, SatF, and OBaM (interesting collection of acronyms we have here, neh?). I will buy these books, and if it would help you out, I will pay for them now, if need be. Anything else that comes out, such as Riddle of Gold, adventures, etc. I'm less likely to buy as I've never been a big fan of sourcebooks or adventures, but you could probably count on selling at least a couple of those to me as well anyhow.

Anything I can do to help TRoS be the product I know it can be, just let me know.

[Lyrax]

Hey Jake,

I will have that Bestiary, no matter what.

I will not buy a PDF.  Why not?  I'm sitting here behind a 56k dialup, that's why.  I think you understand.

I believe (but I am, of course, uncertain) that Beasts & Men will be popular.  Perhaps not quite as popular as TFOB will be, but very close.  Why do I think this?  It is because we have given some stock characters/creatures in the original book -- enough to do adventures and campaigns with -- but have hinted that there are many more to be found in Weyrth.

[Brian Leybourne]

I will have that Bestiary, no matter what.

I will not buy a PDF.

Didn't you just contradict yourself? :-) Either you'll have it "no matter what" or you wont because you refuse to buy a PDF. You can't have it both ways :-).

Brian.

[Lance D. Allen]

I think one of the things which will make or break OBaM will be the stock NPC types, personally. In D&D, the Monstrous Manual is considered to be a vital core-book, because the DMG only has a limited supply of monsters to fight.. But TRoS isn't about fighting monsters. I suppose it could be, but for the most part, every story I've seen has centered around human conflicts. The ability to pull up "soldier" stats really quickly, or "duelist" stats will be a lot more useful than monster-of-the-week sort of play. Of course, monster-of-the-week style play will lead very quickly to new-player-character-of-the-week situations, due to the Badass Factor (BF) of TRoS monsters. Likewise, I think the bit about mounts in combat that Brian is supposed to be working on will find good use, as well. TRoS will, I'm certain, accurately reflect the advantages of having a trained mount in combat, and people will pick up on that, unlike in D&D. (Wherein my paladin was trained to fight from horseback, but was pretty much forced by situation to dismount every time we got into a battle...)

[Brian Leybourne]

Likewise, I think the bit about mounts in combat that Brian is supposed to be working on will find good use, as well. TRoS will, I'm certain, accurately reflect the advantages of having a trained mount in combat, and people will pick up on that, unlike in D&D. (Wherein my paladin was trained to fight from horseback, but was pretty much forced by situation to dismount every time we got into a battle...)

I tried to keep the rules as "lite" as possible (the last thing we need is a hundred pages of rules covering all aspects of mounted combat that are so complicated that no bugger will use 'em), but I really think you'll like what you see (well, I really hope so, anyway).

I've covered barding, horseback maneuvers, round/exchange considerations for horseback fighting at speed, mounted vs. ground-based combat, plus statted several different types of horses from the period. There was probably some other stuff too, but it was a while ago and I have been working on other projects so it's not fresh in my mind.

Then on top of horses, I did a lot of work on mans best friend (no, not woman), and covered many other animals as well (but not in as much depth as dogs and horses), plus a lot of general rules that can be applied to a broad range of animals, hit location tables etc.

Brian.

[Lance D. Allen]

Sounds awesome. With all of the various discussions on troops and NPCs here, I think that section should be fairly well-rounded, and with your stuff it should be great.

Something else I'd like to see, if there's still time to make changes, is a section on importing your own creations, or creating NPCs quickly for your own game. It wouldn't need to be a very large section, just some guidelines for what should be covered with any new additions. (ie, summoning things, and other special considerations beyond simply stats and abilities)

[Lyrax]

I will have that Bestiary, no matter what.

I will not buy a PDF.

Didn't you just contradict yourself? :-) Either you'll have it "no matter what" or you wont because you refuse to buy a PDF. You can't have it both ways :-).

Brian.

Eh.  If it never comes out in print (which I highly doubt), I can still pick up a CD when I go back to Utah in the fall.

And I'm writing for Jake anyways, so I'd probably be able to talk him into giving me a free PDF.

But I wouldn't buy a PDF, especially if I had to download it.

So, am I contradicting myself?  Yes and no.

[Janne Halmetoja]

I don't like printing books because they take hell of a lot ink (propably will cost more to print than buy a book!) and It doesn't look nice anyway. I live outside USA and I don't have credit card so book is better option.

- Janne -