Need help fleshing out backstory... [Escape From Illeria]

[Simons]

[Simons]

[Egonblaidd]

Actually, I like the idea, it seems to be something new and different from "some evil dark lord is threatening the world and you must stop him".  As far as I can see, the story seems fairly consistent.  However, it doesn't look like it's actually about war.  Just from reading the story, it sounds like each group would have one of two objectives, (1) try and build a ship with which to escape the island (including required foodstuffs to eat during the voyage), or (2) settle down in a defensive position and find a way to sustain themselves (i.e. farming etc.).  It seems like it's more about survival, so every character's goal is to go on living.  This could lead to things like capturing a half-built ship that another group was working on, or raiding food stores, so there would be a great deal of conflict, but it's not about fighting, it's about living.

Your answer to "What is my game about?" also seems somewhat vague.  It refers more to the mechanics rather than the theme.  Based on what you've written, I'd say your game is about "Survival in an inhospitable world".  Forget the mechanics, forgot HOW it plays, the question is, what is the game ABOUT?  Is it about good triumphing over evil, or the futility of life, or the dangers that come with power?  You sort of see what I mean?  Saying it's a fantasy strategy game tells you nothing of what it is about, only what the setting is and how it's played.

Also, while there are other forums where you could go for help, this seems like as good a place to start as any.  I'm a newcomer myself, and I've already gotten a lot of help.  I'm surprised no one else has answered you yet.

[Simons]

Egonblaidd, definitely thanks for the response.  This has given me a good start of something to think about it. 

However, it doesn't look like it's actually about war.

Well, to be honest, it doesn't really need to be about "war", per-say, but certainly about some degree of fighting.

it sounds like each group would have one of two objectives, (1) try and build a ship with which to escape the island (including required foodstuffs to eat during the voyage), or (2) settle down in a defensive position and find a way to sustain themselves (i.e. farming etc.). 

I am a bit vague about #1.  Basically, the rules say that each time you gather up enough resources, you are allowed to attempt to escape.  This could be building your own ship, but could also be signaling a ship (and possibly stealing it), teleporting off, magically contacting friends back home, or any other variety of methods. 

As for #2, well, in some ways I wanted sustainability to not be an option.  There are mechanical reasons for this, but basically I wanted a game where you wouldn't use the same party for more than about 5 or so games.  I guess this is the internal consistency issue I've had (a friend brought this up earlier), why would roving gangs of former prisoners feel that they had no choice but to leave.  My thoughts so far have been:
-The soil is not enough to harvest more than a minute amount of food.  (either it had always been this way, or the guards poisoned the ground out of spite when they knew they were finished)
-Defending an area the size of a farm, when you are stuck on an island densely packed with desperate starving criminals, for the months it takes to get a harvest, is just not feasible. 
-Most prisoners come out of stasis, and will have trouble finding enough food to sustain them through the time it takes to grow a harvest. 

Your answer to "What is my game about?" also seems somewhat vague.  It refers more to the mechanics rather than the theme.  Based on what you've written, I'd say your game is about "Survival in an inhospitable world".  Forget the mechanics, forgot HOW it plays, the question is, what is the game ABOUT?  Is it about good triumphing over evil, or the futility of life, or the dangers that come with power?  You sort of see what I mean?  Saying it's a fantasy strategy game tells you nothing of what it is about, only what the setting is and how it's played.

Perhaps this is the problem.  As I think I said, my original design goal was to create a fun strategy wargame.  I guess originally I thought I'd rather have a good game with a so-so theme than vice-versa, although now I'm starting to appreciate that those two things can't exactly be traded off.  I don't mind reworking parts of my game, but have come to far to rewrite it.  I mean, I do think that "survival in an inhospitable world" is sort of the theme I'm going for, although I've sometimes debated if being on a prison island is the best place for it (maybe something the equivalent of the fall of Rome would work better, except I don't have a reason that a group would want to retire). 

I'll need to think about this, and maybe come back later.  Although, has anyone else gone through this kind of problem?  Is it possible to inject theme later into a game?  What advice do people have?

Simon

[Egonblaidd]

I did have a similar problem.  Originally I was designing a "fun fantasy RPG" (actually, I think what intrigued me was figuring out how to mathematically and logically represent life in a fantasy world, with a heavy emphasis on adventuring), but after getting some feedback and reading a lot of info I found that as such my game would never be more than average.  There are bad mechanics and there are good mechanics, there are uninteresting worlds and there are rich worlds, and all the things that make up an RPG already exist in some form; you can't hope to outdo everyone else, especially as a single amateur author.  People will compare your mechanics to that of D&D, and aspects of your world to the Forgotten Realms or Middle Earth, and you just can't compete.  So don't compete.  You can make your game stand out by giving it a different theme entirely.  Players may not like your mechanics, they may not like your world as much as some others, but if you can make them like the theme then they will still play your game.  If a player goes into your game thinking, "How can I kill things and take their loot?" then either he will be frustrated when he dies because he was focusing on the wrong aspect of the game or he will succeed and never understand what the game is really about.  Worse, if you don't understand what the game is about then you may redesign it during playtesting to make it more conducive to "killing things and taking their loot" when you haven't designed the game as such.  If you know what you want the theme of your game to be, then you can design all the other aspects of your game to reinforce or at least not hinder that theme.  Come to think of it, I'll bet these principles also apply to any kind of game, be they pen and paper RPGs, videogames, or boardgames.

A prison island sounds like a good setting for that theme, I think.  Obviously there are different settings you could do, and those would accent different aspects of your theme, but I think the prison island setting definitely works for what you're doing.  And with escape as the only option it will make a lot of sense to raid your neighbors in order to add their resources to your own in order to finish constructing your own escape vehicle (whatever it is) sooner.  One question, and one that shouldn't be too hard to find an answer for, is, why don't the prisoners work together to make their escape more quickly?  There could be a number of reasons for this, but you need to come up with one that fits the setting and incorporate it in.

[Adarchi]

I like the concept. My first thought was something similar to a fallout type setting where players must scavenge and fight for even the most basic resources. I'm not sure if you're leaning more towards fantasy or sci fi from your description so let me throw out two quick scenarios:

Fantasy) The prison island holds all sorts of different races such as orcs, dwarves, elves, etc. Furthermore these are the worst sort, a combination of ability and criminal intent. All of the races hate each other and stick to their own kind. Any stragglers found from other races are killed on principle. "The only good elf is a dead elf." Each of the races has their own method of trying to get off the island are also have near monopoly on certain goods. Dwarves have taken all of the valuable metal, the elves protect the one small forest, the humans have found the one decent fishing spot, etc. To escape the dwarves want to burrow to their mountain homes, the elves want to cast a spell to summon an ancient fish to carry them off, the humans want to build a boat, etc. In order to escape, each race is going to need what the other races have.

Sci Fi) The prisoners are on a nearly un-inhabitable planet. The atmosphere has barely enough oxygen to sustain life, the soil is too acidic for anything to grow, and the constant dust storms kill machinery quickly. Vital equipment was stored in different areas on the planet and now that the guards are dead, the first to collect some of each will be able to leave. Robots are in an air-tight bunker used for heavy labor and possible protection. Oxygen masks are in the old warden's office and are required for anything besides light physical exertion. Parts to construct a cryo-chamber for the decade long trip to the closest system are in a small observation post. Again there is only enough to get one group away safely. Food will run out and cannot be replenished. Conflict is inevitable.

[Vulpinoid]

you can't hope to outdo everyone else, especially as a single amateur author.  People will compare your mechanics to that of D&D, and aspects of your world to the Forgotten Realms or Middle Earth, and you just can't compete.  So don't compete.  

Sorry Egonblaidd, I really have to comment here that what you've written really seems like a defeatist attitude.

If someone said the same thing to Gregor Hutton as he was writing 3:16, we probably wouldn't have one of the more interesting sci-fi games round at the moment. Sure he based it off Starship Troopers, Warhammer 40k and Aliens, but he really worked to bring out certain elements in a cool way. The setting may not be that original but it helps inform the stories being told. The politics of the situation might be downplayed; but that's because troopers don't get involved in politics, they get involved in killing things. The mechanics might be fairly similar to a couple of other games I've encountered, but he's woven them together wit the unique vision that can only come from a single creative mind (rather than a design by committee).

A single driven author can do amazing things when they put their mind to it...and I've noticed a trend that those amazing things tend to crystallise in the early stages of development. Once the ideas are set, then the artists, page layout designers, playtesters and other collaborators come to the table to refine something into a gaming gem.

I agree that Simon seems to have a good concept that needs some refinement, a theme is just one way to do it.

...and remember, plenty of games have had themes that sucked as well (or at least didn't create a coherent whole unifying the theme through the project, and therefore underplayed the theme's potential).

V

[Egonblaidd]

Not to hijack the thread or anything, but I suppose what I said did sound a bit defeatist.  BUT there's no reason you can't have innovative and effective mechanics and an interesting world at the same time as a great theme.  In any case, you can greatly improve the quality of your work by focusing it somehow.  Also, I think trying to outdo the giants of the field is a mentality that will lead to failure, you will be much more likely to succeed if you try and do your own thing instead of trying to do someone else's thing better.  People do get a lot of great ideas.  I get them all the time myself.  But a single idea is nothing, you can't write a book or make a game or a movie using only one idea.  You have to build the entire structure of your book or game or movie around that idea.  You might have an idea about some hero with a big sword that can control time, but that is the only detail you actually have.  If you start trying to construct a story based on that idea alone, you start running into problems.  What do people build their houses out of?  What kind of technology do they have?  What do their ships look like?  In fact, what does your hero actually DO?  The base idea is insufficient for a story, and serves only as an inspiration or guideline for the rest of the details.  To most questions the hero idea is irrelevant, and so while such a hero may be cool it isn't really a good idea to base a story off of.  Heroes with big swords have been done before, as has time control.  Better to come up with another idea that can serve a better guideline and then incorporate your hero into the story built around that other idea.  Basically the only way to really stand out as a good author is to do something different (though there is more to it than that), even if all you're doing is putting the same old ideas together in a different way.  For example, you could take Middle Earth and replace the humans with Narnia style talking animals, change the names and everything to avoid copyright issues, and you might be hailed as the greatest fantasy author of all time (it's doubtful, though).  In practice it will be much more complicated than this, but I've heard it said that there are no new ideas, so anything that seems "new" is probably just a unique combination of different ideas that have already been thought of by others.  All this to say, I suppose, that it is better if the game is centered around this uniqueness (be it through a theme or whatever) instead of the uniqueness being in the details (elves have GREEN BLOOD, because, um, it's foresty, and has nothing to do with Vulcans from Star Trek, which are kind of like space elves).

I apologize for the thread hijack.

[Simons]

quote author=Vulpinoid link=topic=27698.msg261629#msg261629 date=1237432547]
I agree that Simon seems to have a good concept that needs some refinement, a theme is just one way to do it.
V
V

[Vulpinoid]

The reason I say that Theme isn't the only way to refine a concept is because the definition of theme can be tricky.

You can take the Forge definition...

Theme

    The point, message, or key emotional conclusion perceived by an audience member, about a fictional series of events. The presence of a theme is the defining feature of Story as opposed to Transcript. See Narrativism: Story Now.

You can take the definition provided by White Wolf in many of their books, where the theme is different for each book but is something subtle in the background that helps to glue a series of events into a cohesive story.

Either way, I see theme as something that helps to turn a game into a collaborative storytelling experience. But not all games need to be methods of telling a communal story, and therefore not all game really need a key defining theme.

A concept can be refined in the very ways that you've currently indicated...giving evocative names for terms within the game, a quirky mechanism within the game structure that ties everything together in a way that other games haven't done, and the one I think is most important...CONSISTENCY.

Many of the vanilla games out there seem to be random assortments of mechanisms thrown together, or disjointed bits of narrative that don't seem to make sense as a whole (both of these are common in the designs of large companies where employees work on separate parts of the system or setting). Steps can be taken to remedy this latter flaw by creating a theme and drawing everything from it, but a bit of care and attention goes a lot further.

I've probably just confused you further, I'm just trying to throw you a new perspective.

V

[JoyWriter]

Simons, your idea reminds me of necromunda, only with a more magical twist. That is a very silly game in many ways, (surreal experience system) but me and my friends have had a lot of fun for years off and on, plugging proper roleplaying around it's structure, with family relationships or personality conflicts driving customised confrontations etc.

As your setting is magic, have you considered linking the conflict to the concept of escape itself? Say that every person has a sentence time, and a period of allotted years, but by joining magically into a group, they can pool their "time served" and increase their chances of leaving. Now there should be some reason either magical or human that groups don't grow above the size of 8, but it should probably not be a strict limit for flexibility reasons. The next trick is that the same magical discovery that allows people to do this allows people to grab each-others served sentence time via killing people off. (Death Note meets "hunter" game modes meets Commorragh!) So by fighting each other in groups, they are hoping to get closer to escape!

[Simons]

Actually, putting this, and two discussions I had with friends together, I think I might have come up with an idea for a better storyline.  I'm not sure if I'm going to abandon the prison island idea, but I'm at least going to work through this new one first.

Thanks to everyone for your input.

Simon