The beginnings of my System, help needed

[Ayyavazi]

Hello again all,

Below is the starting work of my system. Its definitely not finished yet, but once I figure out the right dice pools for distribution, it will be ready for play-testing. I've included some questions and thoughts to reflect on, for those of you wanting to help flesh out the game and make it a good one. Thanks again for any help in this area!

The Three Main Attributes

Body-This is a measure of your physical ability in all things. Whether it represents that you are fast but resilient, or tough and slow, is up to you. The more dice you have here, the more physical ability you have.
Heart-This is a measure of how much emotional strength you have. It is also your soul and connection to spiritual matters. The more dice you have here the better you will be able to empathize and the stronger your magic will be.
Mind-This is a measure of your personality and knowledge. It governs alchemy and the pursuit of knowledge or debate. The more dice you have here, the stronger your sense of self and/or your depth of knowledge.

The Axioms<Definitions will be forthcoming. This is just the early work. Any suggestions you have are appreciated! Also, additions too!

Traits<Relationships<How to take action:

[Luke]

How do I use your vice against you?

[Ayyavazi]

Hi Luke,

Thanks for the question! ( I mean it, I'm not being snarky.)

I am still working on exactly how to allow this, but I have the general idea.

Basically, everyone has their vice and virtue dice laid out on index cards or whatever to keep track of what values go where. This is just to ensure that when you use a roll or two from, say, Love, you know how to describe what you are doing. If you are swinging a sword at someone, for whatever reason, and you want to use your love virtue, there better be some good role-playing there, or the group as a whole gets to veto the use.

So lets say I am swinging a sword at you, and I possess Life as a Vice, meaning roughly that I am struggling against an occasional desire to preserve life. You could claim my Life dice as your own (all d8s) and use them in your raises and sees. Since reversal, dodge/block, and taking the blow all work like Dogs in the Vineyard at the moment, it progresses from there, with you having some extra fuel for your attacks. You might block/dodge with something like, I say, "What about my life? Isn't it worthwhile? Why should you be trying to kill me?" and his blow misses my by inches even as my words sink in...

I know that's a pretty weak example, and I'll try to come up with a better one as soon as I can. As for balancing this out so that it doesn't become a "whoever claims it first gets it" I'm working on it. So far, I am leaning toward only being able to claim the rolls you are using only, not the entire vice/virtue (since you can use both against their possessors if done properly) If the description you give doesn't seem justified by what you are using, the GM (and/or other players) can call you on it, getting more description as necessary. I also want there to be something that the you get as an advantage when someone uses your own virtue/vice against you.

So, what prompted this question?

Now, for some additional information

Traits and Relationships are now just Traits. From here on out, a relationship is just a trait such as Relationship: entry. Since both have the same types of dice and are used the same way, I feel a distinction between the two, for my game anyway, just muddies the water.

Also, traits can be linked to a specific virtue or vice. This restricts the use of the trait to times when the vice or virtue is used, but gives a benefit in return: all dice related (thats the vice/virtue and the trait intself) have their die size increased by one step for the duration of the conflict. This allows players access to the elusive d12 in the event they have a d10 trait linked to a vice or virtue. I might want to differentiate the rewards based on linking to a vice or virtue, but this is still up in the air at the moment. Any suggestions are welcome.

Now, I want to describe the flavor of magic in the system, so that I can receive help on it too.

There are four types of Magic:
1. Law
2. Chaos
3. Possession
4. Alchemy

Law magic is runic in nature, and is linked to your virtues, whatever those are. It takes a long time to work (being that you need complex runes, inscribing them, chanting and such) and uses your own life force to fuel it. They are long lasting enchantments.

Chaos magic is based off of your vices (meaning you are indulging things you hate), and is quick and brutal. It is also fueled by your own life force and has few lasting manifestations magically speaking (consequences such as a disability are another matter).

Possession is a matter of allowing other-worldly beings to inhabit you. The strength for the magic comes from you as well as the creature bound to you, and abilities of the union can be either long term or short. You might grow claws, or be able to breathe fire, or call thunder down from the heavens, even warp space or time. It all depends on what you allow to be bound to you. These entities have their own virtues and vices, and often work at cross purposes to you, causing you to indulge your own vices, and gradually miring your soul in eternal questioning and conflict.

Alchemy uses no vices or virtues. It is strictly based off of your own abilities and traits. It is easily the weakest of the magics, having no actual supernatural source. It is mostly potions, salves, and other things like that. In a way, it is the precursor to science in this setting.

So, thanks again luke. I hope I answered your question, and feel free to grill me if you like. I find my creative energies flow better when hit with questions. (I'm not trying to sound antagonistic in case I am).

Cheers,
--Norm

[Luke]

So, what prompted this question?

It seems to me that this is the core of your system. A robust mechanic here will define your game.

[JoyWriter]

I suspect that the vice mechanic may actually handle being "conflicted" quite well, providing the players call on the traits in an "out of fiction" way, so it is not the character who says "isn't my life worth something", but the attacker themselves has a flash of guilt or memory of something that happened before, so that it seems that they are just being complicated, rather than manipulated.

Also on relationships, don't underestimate their ability to create a setting. If everyone has a set minimum number of relationships, then they each build a part of the setting around their characters. I love how that stops the PCs floating around psychotically, and gives them all kinds of motivations to do stuff.

On vices becoming virtues, how do you see that working in fiction? Should it happen in big turning point events? Should it be a sudden flip if the trait is overpowered? I don't like that last one much by the way, as if it is supposed to be the core of what they do, then shifting to becoming their repressed weakness is not so cool to me. Also, if villains can keep their virtues and do awful stuff, maybe they should be immutable, except for in super dramatic cases where the drama itself shows you the way to change them?

[Ayyavazi]

Thanks Luke and Joy.

First, in order of reply, Luke.

I agree with you there. Being that virtues and vices are the core of the system, making it solid sounds a very good idea. That's one of the reasons I posted this thread. I'd like some help fleshing it out before it goes to play-testing. I know this isn't absolutely necessary, but I'd like it nonetheless while I get a group together. The more solid the rules are ahead of time, the more we can explore them and learn. So was my answer "good," or sub-par? Does it make for an interesting mechanic?

Joywriter, I agree with you on how the vices should work there. The flavor evoked is much closer to how the game should play out, though I do think banter in combat should occasionally have similar impact, since I hate the silent fights I always experience in games like D&D. It always feels like I'm the only character talking while everyone else is just stern-faced and silent as they hack limbs.

As for relationships, you've made a good point. I'll separate them out again. And on to vices becoming virtues and vice-versa. I do think this needs to have a suitably dramatic moment occur in order for the change to take place. But, I want to link those dramatic moments to the mechanics in some way so that it doesn't just become GM Fiat. I want the players to able to initiate and pull off the change somehow along with creating the situation that allows it. Mechanically, I am considering it to be something like, If an axiom has more dice than its opposite, it can be moved to either a vice or virtue depending upon a suitably dramatic situation. Maybe the "stakes" of a conflict would need to be set as, "Changing Love from Vice to Virtue" and then playing out the mental struggle of the character against himself, with other players using his own stats against him. Maybe I could not require the greater dice thing at all and just allow players to attempt it whenever. It would be easier if the axiom in question had more dice, but the possibility is there. Kind of like minions being able to try to defy the Master early on in My Life with Master.

The only thing I'm really struggling with is how to make sure that everyone doesn't just roll all of their dice every conflict and then begin to claim as much as they can from everyone else. If that's what the rules support (and I fear they currently do) then I might as well give the group one single character sheet to work from. Which is an interesting idea in itself. Hmm...

Thanks again,

--Norm

[Ayyavazi]

Hey everyone,

This post is approximately 6 pages worth of Microsoft Word document at siz 12 font, single spaced. Just a heads up. I couldn't figure out how to add document links, and my web time is currently limited.

I have updated my rules and they are almost ready for playtesting (I think). I just have to figure out how many dice to grant in each area of Attributes, Axioms, Traits and Relationships. I have included all of it below, sans definitions for Axioms and Attributes. Any help in this area is appreciated, as well as any general system suggestions. Also, I did not give any play examples, which I am willing to take submissions for. By the way, anyone who has contributed thus far has a page on my computer for name recognition. When I publish this game, the following people will get some degree of credit:

Ron
Lumpley
Egonblaidd
Luke
Joywriter
Spooky Fanboy
Eero Tuovinen
Gnomeworks

If your name isn't on here, just feel free to remind me what you've done and I'll include you.

Thanks again,

--Norm

p.s. feel free to ask questions and clarifications!

The Three Main Attributes

Body-This is a measure of your physical ability in all things. Whether it represents that you are fast but resilient, or tough and slow, is up to you. The more dice you have here, the more physical ability you have.
Heart-This is a measure of how much emotional strength you have. It is also your soul and connection to spiritual matters. The more dice you have here the better you will be able to empathize and the stronger your magic will be.
Mind-This is a measure of your personality and knowledge. It governs alchemy and the pursuit of knowledge or debate. The more dice you have here, the stronger your sense of self and/or your depth of knowledge.

The Axioms<
Traits<Relationships<Linking
When you design a Trait or Relationship (or any time you wish to in game where it makes sense) you can Link a Trait or Relationship to a specific axiom. Doing this means that your use of the Trait or Relationship is restricted to only those times when you invoke the axiom in a conflict. However, you reap a significant benefit from it. When using the Linked pair of Axiom and Trait/Relationship, you increase the die size of both by one. So, d4s become d6s, d6s become d8s and so on. This gives you access to d12s, the largest die used in the game! Beware overusing the Link ability though. You may restrict yourself to not having enough applicable traits to see conflicts through, and your opponents can use linked traits against you as if they were axioms (whereas normally they could not).

Die Sizes
As for the dice involved, all attributes are d6s, virtues are d6s, and vices are d8s. This makes succumbing to a vice a great way to get a statistical advantage, but comes with making your character work against themselves more and more, and makes them more conflicted (which will possibly be an in-game term eventually to describe inability to act or something else. Ideas welcome!). Vices are also much easier to use by the antagonist in a conflict, so raising them is risky at best. Traits and Relationships can be either d4s or d10s. d4s are still helpful, but risky for the same reasons they are risky in Dogs, where as a d10 is a definite strength.

How to take action:
Whenever you want to do something that is opposed by another person, or has a dramatic chance of failure (more on what that means later), you roll dice. First you and your opponent(s) declare a goal. Then, roll whichever appropriate attribute dice you have (along with traits and relationships). Then, determine appropriate Virtue or Vice dice and roll them accordingly. Keep each set of virtue dice and vice dice separate. Using an index card labeled for each one helps, just put your dice on the card after rolling them. This is important because your opponent can use them against you in certain ways. If there is no opponent, the GM will use environment dice (like demonic influence in Dogs in the Vineyard) in addition to trying to use your own virtues and vices against you. If there are any un-claimed virtues or vices, you or your opponent(s) can claim them and roll them.

The actual mechanics start to resemble dogs here, at least in the raise and see mechanics.

Kicking off the conflict<
Resolution<The Bonus Pool

You can do a number of things with dice from your bonus pool, both during conflict and after it. Make sure to keep your bonus dice segregated so you know their source, either Attribute, Relationship, Trait, Vice, or Virtue.

During Conflict<After Conflict<Resolving Wounds<Temporary Wounds
For every temporary wound die, the opponent who dealt you the wound gets a bonus d4 of its general type (Virtue, Vice, Trait, Relationship, or Attribute) in the follow-up conflict. If there is no follow-up conflict, they are discarded. These are not treated as bonus dice, but are instead just added to their associated pools when they are rolled. They get added to the first thing of their type that is rolled. So the attribute bonus dice are added to the first attribute the opponent rolls, vices to the first vice, and so on.

Lasting Wounds
For every lasting wound to an attribute or virtue, reduce it by one die permanently. For every lasting wound to a vice, add one to it permanently. For a lasting wound to a Trait or Relationship, either reduce an existing trait or relationship respectively at 1d10 by one die, or add a new trait or relationship respectively at 1d4. You can add 1d4 to an existing trait or relationship of that size instead if you so desire.

Unexpected Gain