[Sorcerer] Stupid summoning dice question

[Neil the Wimp]

If this question has an obvious answer, please enlighten me.  Consider my Sorcerer PC with Will 4, Humanity 6.  He's trying to Summon a Demon with Power 5.  Who rolls how many dice?

The Sorcerer should roll Will - Humanity = 4 - 6 = -2.
The Demon should roll Power = 5.

As I can't roll -2 dice, something's got to give.  As I see it, the options are:

1: He just can't summon demons without additional preparation, help, etc. to give him at least 3 bonus dice. 

2: My dice pool has a floor of 1 die, so I roll 1 die vs the Demon's 5

3: I use the 'currency' system to give both sides three extra dice, so I'm rolling 1 die vs the Demon's 8.

Which one is the 'recommended' way of summoning?

Ta,

Neil.

[greyorm]

Which one is the 'recommended' way of summoning?

As I understand it, options #1 and #3 both work.

#1: drugs and sacrifices  (or whatever, depending on how you've defined sorcery in your game) can increase the number of dice you can roll for the Summoning attempt, as well as the usual roll-over bonuses and good role-playing bonuses, any help he might receive from fellow coven members/other sorcerers, and a bonus for taking extra long to perform the ritual.

#3: Yes. If you decide NOT to boost up the number of dice you are rolling any other way (or your bonus dice don't get you to 1) the opponent gains a number of bonus dice to roll equal to the number of dice it takes to get your sorcerer to 1 die. So three bonus dice to the opposing roll, making it 8 against 1.

Your #2 is absolutely wrong and never happens. See the currency rules in the main book for why.

[Ron Edwards]

#1 is basically an end-run which makes the question unnecessary. #2 is Not It.

#3 is on the right track but not mathematically stated quite right. There are no negatives in Sorcerer. If you are reduced to 0 dice, it's 0 dice, and there is no overkill.

Therefore the problem is not -2 against 5, it's 0 against 5.

The sorcerer rolls one die and the demon rolls 6.

Best, Ron

[greyorm]

(Your book changes when I'm not looking. Fucking demonic tome. *grumblegrumble*)

Ron, is the "no negative dice" stated concretely anywhere in the core book (I've looked but had no luck)? Or is it a later clarification? I ask because I am looking at pages 106-108 where the term "negative dice" is thrown around.

Could you clarify the above answer? I'm assuming there is a difference between how many dice you have to roll -- ie: no negative dice -- and how many penalties you are carrying, correct? So if you are carrying 6 penalties on your character with a Stamina of 3, he's inches from death, but you treat him as though he has a 0 Stamina for purposes of rolling dice, the Will trick, gaining bonus dice, etc.

[jburneko]

(Your book changes when I'm not looking. Fucking demonic tome. *grumblegrumble*)

Ron, is the "no negative dice" stated concretely anywhere in the core book (I've looked but had no luck)?

Raven,

I can't give you the page number because I don't have the book in front of me.  But I do know there is a place that explicitly states that zero is the lowest a stat can go.  I think it also mentions that when you have a stat of zero you roll 1 die.

Jesse

[The Dragon Master]

I do remember the statement about rolling 1 die when at 0. I just can't remember where (and haven't found it on my latest read through. Anyone know where that is?

[Neil the Wimp]

Thanks, guys.  I think.  (We now have an underpowered Sorcerer to deal with.)

Neil.

[The Dragon Master]

Some options for this player are:
1. Drugs and Sacrifices (as mentioned before)
2. Making a Lore roll to learn about the type of demon you want to communicate with, then Contacting the demon, then attempting to summon it. The lore roll would provide bonuses to the contact, which would provide bonuses to the summoning attempt. It's all about the bonuses.
3. Sumoning a Demon with Boost: Will
4. Performing acts of Sorcery  left and right till he drives his humanity down (which you as GM are probably trying to do anyway).

At least those are the three that spring to mind most readily (other than

[greyorm]

Jesse and Tony: yeah, I swear I recall the same statement, but I can't find it in the text, so I figured I was wrong and it was one of those internet things that had arisen about gameplay. Hence the question.

If anyone finds it, please pop a note with the page number in the thread.