Looking for a DnD 4E Rules-Lite System for PbP or Table

[RevJackson]

I'm amazed by this place.  I've been reading and learning a lot here.

I love narrativist play.  So I really like PbP games.  I'm very pressed for time.  Running combat, esp 4E combat, in PbP is stupid (mostly).  However, I want to have my cake and eat it to.  Can anyone point me to any efforts at simplifying DnD 4E ruleset to make for faster combat in PbP? And I'm hoping for "pretty simple".

Here is my initial proposal; feedback would be great:

Ideally, I'd like to be able to have a player take a normal 4E char sheet and run that PC using the simplified system.  I was thinking the simplified rules could algorithmically digest a normal char sheet and/or monster stat block into some simpler form.  Possibly even reduced to a single check to be rolled against the opposing side similar to a skill challenge.  The players could use the scene (terrain, npcs, roleplay, whatever) to gain bonuses (or penalties).  Essentially, the approach is to reduce combat to something akin to a skill challenge. So what I need is some basic framework from which to approach algorithmically digesting (reducing) the PC/Monster stats into something akin to a skill check where numbers of successes rolled determines degree of success in the encounter.  E.g., 4 success and 0 failures means the PCs survive unharmed...or some such as that. I wouldn't want to run it just like a skill challenge.  I would prefer to have each player roll *only once* for the encounter (against a DC or opposing roll) and then determine number of successes.  Thats it.  If PCs want the opposition dead, then the bad guys are dead.  If PCs want to capture them, then they are captured.

I realize this approach severely limits combat, and its impossible for a simplified system to account for the complexity of the full system.  There would be a significant degree of hand waiving, etc.  Such a simple system would not be for gamist folks at all.  Its designed for a group of narrativists.  Well, I'm going to leave at that for now.  Please let me know what you think or where I should go look.  Thanks..

[Eero Tuovinen]

Welcome to the Forge, Jackson.

It's probably best to leave the GNS terminology at the door. Going off your post I'm going to guess that by "narrativist" you mean that you want more narration and less mechanics in the game. That's not quite what the word means, but we don't have to care about that - just let's not use the word, we can speak directly of your goals for the game.

My own first reaction is that D&D 4th edition is an awfully poor platform for this sort of thing simply because its rules are so tightly gridlocked - players would spend and awfully long time planning characters in terms that wouldn't get used if you removed the combat system with its combat rounds, hit point calculations and, above all, powers. Why do you even consider it as your basis? The sort of one-roll simplification you sketch here would mean ignoring 95% of the contents of the character sheet, that game is nothing apart from the combat system.

As an alternative, have you considered backtracking to an older version of D&D? Sounds to me like you'd get pretty much what you want in the old "basic D&D" from the '80s. Mentzer red box, to be exact. It's probably available as a free retro clone out there in the Internet, too. That gives you the same D&D flavor (which you can modernize all you want) with considerably simpler rules.

Even better, if you really want a narrative-focused (perhaps even narrativist in the theoretical sense) game, why not drop D&D from the equation altogether? It seems to me that something like The Pool could be right up your alley - remember that you can still use the color elements of D&D if you want, there's just no need to mess with the rules if you don't want what they offer. You could keep the races and character classes and such as narrative elements while playing with some completely different rules system.

[CKNIGHT]

Google microlited20

quick, simple, free

[Eldrad]

You could also try Basic Fantasy and Swords and Wizardry which are both free as well.

http://www.basicfantasy.org/

http://www.swordsandwizardry.com/

There is also Casltes and Crusades from Trolllords.

[RevJackson]

Thank you all for your suggestions, they are all very good ideas.  Unfortunately, they are all the exact opposite of what I am seeking.  I'm not seeking a separate system.  I'd like to have a 4E-rules-lite system that is interchangeable with 4E PCs and monster stats.  IOW, I want to use 4E char sheets and stat blocks in a simplified system for resolving combat. I know you are asking why I would want that.  Well, I do.  ....maybe I will come back and respond after I've come up with something more.  But see OP for clarification.

[Eero Tuovinen]

Well, if I absolutely had to replace the 4th edition combat system with a simple narrativist (whatever we mean by that) system, here's what I'd do:

When a combat is engaged, have all participating characters roll an Initiative check. The winner of the check may narrate how they win the combat and what are the consequences to the others; usually this'd be a short, pre-emptive strike. The narrative consequences of winning with an Initiative check are limited to intimidating the opponents, giving a superficial wound, driving the opposition away, forcing your way past them and other such lightweight stuff; no death or serious injury. In addition, all losers lose the check differential in hitpoints.

After the Initiative check each player has the choice of contesting the outcome by checking off one of their character's Powers. The Power mechanics do not matter here, all Powers work the same: they allow the player to roll a combat check with whatever key ability works for the character class in question. All players decide whether they're going to contest the victory or not at once, and everybody decides how many checks they want to make to do so: the players can mark off several Powers to make multiple checks, ultimately choosing to keep just one of them.

Just like with the Initiative round, the highest outcome allows the winner of the round to narrate how his character wins the combat. This time the outcome may include capturing the enemy, killing some extras or such as well. The losers lose some hitpoints again as well.

To keep the system short, we'll say that the second round can't be repeated: instead, if anybody calls for a third round, it is played out with simple Strength checks. Those who still choose to participate do so at their own peril: the winner of the last round may narrate how the losers die. Alternatively you might allow a couple of repeats of the second round before moving to the ultimate round with the dead threat.

It's not exactly a one-roll resolution, but at least it preserves hit points, ability scores and the idea of spending Powers that have various colorful names. Powers and hit points would presumably be gained back through extended rest. Still not much sense that I can understand in doing this, though.

[Callan S.]

I'm not sure it's possible to make 4E rules light without using a seperate system. It'd be like making chess into a single dice roll - clearly a new system. I think this may be an impossible request?

But some symple system that grabs at some 4E character sheet stats, that's possible. But that requires giving up on the idea it really is 4E, just a lite version.

[redalastor]

We can fold everything into one single roll, it just loses all the essence of the game you are trying to simplify.

Here's one approach that technically works:

Add the 6 basic stats together, multiply by the level of the character and roll that number. It's not a real dice but on a pbp, it doesn't really matter. Highest result wins.

Feats and skills are ignored, we assume that equal level characters have equivalent ones. Magical items have to somehow modify the base stats to count.

You'd have to tweak the formula because there's currently a diminishing return for leveling up but you'll still end up with something that looks like this.

[Vulpinoid]

If you want a really stripped down version of 4e D&D, and if you happen to use facebook, have a look at Dungeons and Dragons Tiny Adventures.

It's basically an interactive advertisement for D&D through Facebook, and it works off a bunch of random encounters to tell a basic adventure story. You run through a bunch of these to level up. Once your character reaches level 10, you retire it and start with a new character. The more characters you retire like this, the more special features you activate in the program.

It's created by WotC, so it's probably as close to an "official" stripped down version as you'll get. It should give you some good ideas for creating a table-top version.

V

[whiteknife]

You could try running combat as a skill challenge. Allow for attack rolls and power attacks to be used as skills, of course. Then just make a rule like: if you roll damage equal to or greater than a quarter of the monster you're attack's health, it counts as two successes. Hell, have each monster as its own skill challenge. Have each failure damage the PCs or just have the monsters attack like normal. Come up with on-the-fly bonuses for creative skill use, good narration, or weaving the terrain into your maneuver. Go crazy.

[Wordman]

If I understand what you are looking for, it seems that you are trying to do the following (in pseudo math terms):

• Let S be the "character sheet" (of PC, monster, whatever).
• Let X be a set of simplified values suitable for a play-by-post game
• Assume a function f(S) = X, where:
  
  
  
  • The resulting X is a reasonable distillation of the capabilities implied by S.
  • Players can maintain, update and advance S exactly as per 4E rules (implying that they could use full-on 4E mechanics at the table).
  • If S changes, it should be possible to recalculate X fairly easily.
  • The capabilities represented by X should have some notional "feel" of playing 4E.

If this is a correct statement of your desire, then you are really asking two questions. First, how should f(S) work? Second, what is contained in set X and how do they function?

The second question is easier, probably. Given that you want to play-by-post, you probably want to avoid dice rolling, because it slows everything down. By the same token, you probably don't just want a "guy with the highest number wins every time" system, because that's dull. Also, you want to keep the feel of 4E. I would work it like this:

X contains four traits that represent the amount of narrative power a character has at the roles important to 4E:

• Control
• Defense
• Leadership
• Strike

Rather than comparing ratings in these traits, the score in each acts as a pool of points to be spent in two ways. The first allows the character act in that roll, spending (or maybe bidding) points to be more effective. Someone might use Strike points to narrate a fireball spell, for example. The pool would refresh, perhaps, each scene. Maybe there is a limit to how many points you can spend. Maybe you can exceed that limit once a day. In this way, you sort of simulate the concept of "encounter" and "per day" powers in 4E. Somehow the amount of points spent would suggest the narrative result.

The second way these points can be spend could be as "damage". That is, when actions occur against you, your pools decrease. I suppose you could had some sort of "hit point" trait instead, but just keeping the four role pools would probably be more interesting.

Defining the function f(S) is much trickier, and could probably get quite complicated if you let it. A first approach would be to do something like the following:

• Add 10 points based on class. Usually, these will all go into the pool associated with that class' role, but perhaps some hybrid classes might spread them around a bit.
• Add maybe 3 points for race, using some sort of fixed table (e.g. all dwarves get 3 points to Defense).
• For every class power, figure out what role it serves, and add 1 to the corresponding pool.
• Likewise, for each feat, figure out what role it serves, and add 1 to the corresponding pool.
• For every magical item, figure out both what role(s) it serves, and how much narrative power, that is, how many points, it grants (maybe using the gp cost as a formula). Even really powerful items probably shouldn't grant more than 3 points or so.

That's probably not a final working system, but hopefully gets you going in the direction you are looking for.

(One variation I thought of that might be fun: consider a fifth trait represents the notion of alignment, which provides narrative bonuses or defenses when doing things that support that alignment. Probably an over-complication, but might make alignment a bit more important in PbP.)