Griflock

[Imizaru]

[MacLeod]

I like all of your ideas. =) Very different, very interesting. I like the concept of dead heroes being harvested for the use of some bizarre alien entity.

About rolling for the Griflock... Are we talking about all of its behavior, or specific quirks of its behavior? Or, is this about rolling for each one of its responses to a particular situation?
I think the GM would lose out on his part of the fun if he wasn't able to insert his own behavioral modes into the thing.

How detailed are you looking to make the memories and the game mechanics overall? I think the memories could be come as generic Titles that offer preset Passions, Aversions, Drives and stat bonuses... but the player gets to decide the actual details of the memory. These could even be acquired randomly. It would be cool to have strangely contradicting memories and having to weave a story that connects them.
You could always use the Will Points to acquire new memories... it would become a resource management aspect, balancing the danger Dissonance versus acquiring new powers/memories.

Perhaps the heroes, or memory vessels, aren't the original heroes...? They are a strange relic that attracts the memories of dead heroes, absorbing them and gaining their knowledge but also acquiring bits and pieces of their personalities. As I mentioned above, this would breed contradictions (inner-conflict) and cool roleplaying moments.

[Imizaru]

Thank you for the suggestions. And the nice comment. I did a little jig when I read that =) I haven't had anyone to talk to about this, so it's been all in my head.

On the Griflock, I was thinking that it would have certain behavior sets based on PC power levels, WP totals, total memories, number of missions completed/failed, etc., and that while the GM would certainly make the behavior appropriate to the situation, the main course of its action would be mechanical. Partly, this is because after a certain point, when the PC power levels get high enough that they can begin to think about escaping, the Griflock will become the main adversary of the game and throw all its considerable energies into keeping them down. Since the game has a time limit, it just seems that mechanizing it might make things easier to keep track of. Of course, I haven't played it, so I don't really know. I have also thought about having one player control the Griflock, or have the players take turns doing it.

I like your idea of having generic memory titles: such a thing would make it easier to come up with material, and, as you point out, allow for a strange patchwork of memories that might not be from the same person, and conflicting Passions/Aversions. I want the mechanics to scale, depending on how important/interesting the situation is. I am thinking of TSoY's Bringing Down the Pain (a game I've only played once, so my grip on it is slippery) or Trollbabe. My trouble is that in my thinking I tend to fall into a hit-for-hit D&D sort of exchanges, and that is so slow most of the time.

Buying memories is not something I had thought of, and is an idea I will consider. One idea I had was that they would spontaneously generate; I thought of die-pools associated with each memory that would deplete as powers were used and which could be refilled by reading the memory aloud at the table, or saying how that memory inspires the PC to some course of action. After reading a memory a certain number of times, another memory would sprout, or the current one would grow stronger increasing the size of the die-pool. Each memory would be on post-its or some other slip of paper, and when the PC failed a Griflock mission, the GM would rip up one of them, adding some impact to the loss. The other reason I was thinking of this was that by limiting the memory power use, there would be more incentive to use the Machine Powers, which are limitless and effective.
All this seems cool, but it might also be a pain to keep track of it all. Again, I want it to play fast. My original idea was one hour maximum, but with all the world-building that I also want to include, that seems restrictive. Even so, I want it to be greasy smooth once everything is set up.

Any suggestions on how to do that?

[MacLeod]

Real time limits aren't exactly possible for a lot of different groups. Sure, it will breed focus and tension in every session... but in my experience folks like to drift from the table at random times... for the bathroom or other things, sometimes they are at the table but ignoring the game to tell a story or something... Just socializing for a second before diving back into the game.

If you want to make the Griflock's behavior complex enough to rely on multiple factors each determining a different response... the GM would definitely have to track that, as it seems like a lot of info to consume. I think if you really wanted to have preset behavior types, you would want to make the rule modular so those who just want the GM to roleplay it can do so without breaking the game. He would instead loosely follow role play guidelines provided in the rule book.

The PCs being relics/manikins/memory vessels really appeals to me for some reason as well. I would definitely play a game where the depth of my character is discovered during the game through its mechanics (sort of like 3:16's Strengths/Weaknesses game mechanic!).

I know what you are referring to as I just read The Shadow of Yesterday for the first time yesterday. I think a "Zoom" feature could be a useful tool in maximizing the time spent on important events... Zoom in for more details on important events, zoom out when the details can be fuzzy and the outcome is the only important part. As a side note, "Bringing Down the Pain" is a silly way to name that feature, in my opinion.

You mentioned that characters pursue Drives because they are required to... I think making it a requirement "just because" will make the effort put towards them feel tacked on. It makes sense in the Time Limit sense but I have to admit, I am thoroughly against time limits (in video games as well, grrr). Instead, you could use Drives as a way to refill some of the character's Memory Resource (the intangible thing you tap to activate y'r kewl powers). In addition to refilling the Memory Resource, fulfilling Drives gives the character an Xp bonus (like Keys in TSoY). Xp is used to buy a randomized Memory. The cost of Memories begins to increase exponentially as the character amasses Memories in order to slow progress as adventuring goes on.

[Abkajud]

What if a player is content with his amnesia?
MacLeod made a good point:

I think making it a requirement "just because" will make the effort put towards them feel tacked on....Instead, you could use Drives as a way to refill some of the character's Memory Resource (the intangible thing you tap to activate y'r kewl powers). In addition to refilling the Memory Resource, fulfilling Drives gives the character an Xp bonus (like Keys in TSoY). Xp is used to buy a randomized Memory. The cost of Memories begins to increase exponentially as the character amasses Memories in order to slow progress as adventuring goes on.

What if I want to make a guy who is okay just doing his duty to the Griflock, or even someone who thinks the Griflock is a good thing? It's important, in my opinion, to give the option of saying "no" to any particular moral path. For that matter, what are the penalties you've devised for refusing to complete a Drive goal, or failing to/choosing not to complete your main objective?

[MacLeod]

I think allowing players to become buddies with the Griflock* would shift some of the focus away from the more meaningful part of the game premise. I admit that this would breed a narrow focus but some games thrive on such a thing.

To avoid shifting focus... players could be encouraged to create incomplete memories or memories that leave a mystery behind... Remembering how to swing a sword, exorcise demons and shoot hoop is fine, but at the "end" of the memory, the character recalls his master falling to some sort terrible fate. But what exactly? So the character begins to scavenge the depths in order to figure out what happened and why.

*I also don't think it is likely that players would stay friends with the Griflock for too long. Its a paranoid entity that is so intent on keeping its captured heroes that it will actually botch its own missions just for the right to strip them of their memory. This could mean that the Griflock is doing some horrible things... like allowing a city to be overrun by demons who impregnate women with wolverine-ape hybrid demons whom end up bursting free from the innocent women in a terrifying display of violence and pain!!! You'd have to have some kind of sick, heartless hero to be capable of allowing a being to do that without violent recourse. Of course, I'm also assuming that post-imprisonment memories are immune to the Griflock's memory wipe.
I'm imagining the campaign ending with a vicious boss fight... proceeded by the Griflock warping in his other hero minions in an effort to squash the PC-born rebellion.

[Imizaru]

I haven't gone into the fiction to explain why, but the Griflock is not your friend. However one thing I hope to do is to set things up so that it will be fun enough that people can just enjoy playing missions without worrying about the larger scope of the game if they want to. That would be a freeplay mode, to borrow a videogame term.

I recognize that the one hour play time limit is not really feasible; it was my original idea, but the more I thought about it, the less I wanted to play it. There should be an in-game time limit, to keep the pacing up and to make managing the missions a challenge, but mostly I just want the game to play smoothly.

I had some thoughts about memories that may answer some of your comments. Memories arise automatically after certain conditions, i.e. using powers a certain amount, but they come as fragments, indistinct impressions that provide access to minor powers from an ability tree, or with a very small dice-pool. The Drive missions these create are wholly optional with no penalty for ignoring them, however, by completing a Drive mission or by spending WP, the memory can be developed by the player, or it can be discarded for a small price (?). Dice-pools grow and powers open up, but Passions and Aversions become strict and Drive missions take on weight. The first level is an Integrated memory, made up of details and small episodes of the hero's life. This can be further enhanced to become an Embodied memory, with the highest levels of the ability tree opening up. Of course other memories will continue to emerge. Only (say) three memories can Embodied at one time or else the oldest ones start to Fade, be subsumed by the new ones. Memories can also be Tainted by Dissonance from failing Drive missions, or by breaking codes of conduct laid out in the Passions and Aversions. It is possible to clean Tainted memories, but in some cases it will be preferrable to let the Griflock eat them.

Did I answer your concerns? Any thoughts?

[MacLeod]

Sounds good to me so far.

If the memories arise automatically... will the conditions be the same each time? Or, will there be several types of conditions that can trigger such an event? Lots of differing conditions might make it easy for a player to setup a scene where he scores several memories at once. I think that would be a bad thing.
You mention that Memories have to be developed (like a big Skill tree) but only a few can reach the Embodied status. Does this mean that they exist in two different forms, not-embodied and embodied? Or, will there be steps in between?
How about a limit on other memories as well? You could turn it into a pyramid, rank each "step" of the Memory from 3 to 1. One 3, two 2s and three 1s. All Memories gained after that are Fluff. However, the player could select one of his 1's and opt to replace it with the new memory. But he can only make this choice before the memory is chosen randomly... so he might end up with the same one, or one that he still doesn't want. =D
How does the Taint work? Lowers the abilities associated with that memory, cause Aversions and Drives to become worse...?

I also wouldn't mind knowing what sort of dice rolling mechanic you are going to use. Hopefully nothing to do with Fudge dice. My soul cries out for those things to be expunged from this world.

[mjbauer]

I have no constructive feedback, but I think your ideas are really cool, Imizaru. Just wanted to let you know.

I'd like to know more about it. Do you have a blog or another site where you are keeping info or progress about the game?

[Imizaru]

Mjbauer, thank you for letting me know: it's a real boost to my confidence. Unfortunately I don't have any other presence on the web right now. It's something I have thought about, but I haven't made any effort towards it yet. When I get things solid enough to draft out, I will put something together.

MacLeod, I think your right that the memory arisal conditions should be pretty limited. I will consider this closely. A large part of the fun I am envisioning will be developing the memories and learning to use their concomitant powers, and getting too much too soon would dampen that. The memories develop from Fragments to Integrated to Embodied, with increasing power levels and requirements from the missions, Passions and Aversions. The pyramid structure you suggest is similar to what I am thinking, though I am not sure of the numbers, yet.
Tainted memories come when several Drive missions have been failed and/or when Passions and Aversions have been disregarded, broken, etc. and it's when enough Dissonance has infected the memory that the Griflock can influence or control powers associated with that memory. Severe Taint could make a PC have to battle for control of their actions, or, one interesting possibility would have the Griflock try to rewrite the memory while the PC tries to hold on to it, perhaps like Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind. I don't know how I would do that, but the thought just came to me. Could be cool.

Still working on the dice mechanic. Fudge dice are sweet, but they melt and leave the table all sticky, attract ants, rot your teeth, etc.

[Imizaru]

This is a thought in progress as I try to find out what I want these memories to be, both mechanically and narrativistically. (I should mention that what I know of theory has been absorbed through hours of podcasts and not any real concentrated study, so forgive me if I mess up terminology.)
Memories arise through as yet undecided conditions, and new ones will come whenever those conditions are met, however incongruent they may seem. The player may choose to invest in those memories or not.
New memories are called Fragments. They come with an archetype. A rough initial list of these is: Warrior, Revolutionary, Healer, Preserver, Leader, Reformer, Innovator, Visionary, Connector, Explorer, Teacher, Prophet. I don't actually know what some of these mean to the game yet, but some are obvious. They may come with an approximate age: Infant, Child, Adolescent, Adult, Middle-Age, Elder, Ancient; this is about the age in life where the memory came from. It comes with a Passion and an Aversion (no lists yet), but they are very roughly defined, such as Passion: poetry; Passion: growing things; Passion: the sword; Aversion: weakness; Aversion: hypocrisy. Now the player looks at this and decides what this means by injecting content. Fragments are impressions, sensations, facts, feelings, and deja vu. They are seeds upon which the player can begin to build a background and personality. They provide some rudimentary powers from one ability tree or another. Drive missions derived from fragments are non-binding and mostly give the player the chance to add detail to the game world and explore what they are interested in with their PC.
By investing WP in their memory, it becomes Integrated. Integrated memories are portraits of a character, a relationship, an event, a scene, knowledge, or a summary of a stretch of life. This makes the Drive missions become partially binding: PCs must explore the missions and try to unravel them; negative consequences will only come if the mission is ignored or dealt with flippantly (determined via table consensus). Players define the Passions and Aversions more clearly. Think of them as somewhat like Burning Wheel's beliefs and instincts. Passion: poetry becomes, Passion: a verse makes joys deeper and sorrows softer. Aversion: weakness becomes Aversion: I will never submit (or "Bugs must be crushed!"). Or something, anything the player likes; the point is they should suggest a course of action or conduct, and reflect the emerging personality and the culture the memory came from. Integrates give access to greater powers and resources.
By fulfilling a number of Drive missions and investing more WP, an Integrate becomes Embodied. Embodied memories are narratives (and may be played out if it feels appropriate); they give context and identity, purpose and goal; morality, ethics, virtue and culture. Drive missions are fully binding, and failure brings Dissonance; that is, failure should mean something to the PC at this point. Passions and Aversions should be fleshed out and specific, and they must be observed. Embodied memories give strong powers.
Multiple memories can be developed, and they may be complimentary or contradictory, which can lead to problems with conflicting Passions/Aversions, but it could also provide juicy opportunities to roleplay. The PCs could end up having severe multiple personality disorders. I haven't decided on numbers for anything yet, but MacLeod's suggestion above is probably about right.

Now all this sounds cool to me, but it raises a lot of questions about how PC goals and purposes are going to impact the play. Can anyone forsee any problems or potentials for coolness?

BTW, I mentioned morality and ethics and virtue, but I am not proscribing any particular ideas here. Heroes usually believe in something strongly. The content is all up to the player, so if you want a memory from a culture that celebrates bloodshed and says "no flesh must be spared," then by all means enjoy, if that's what your table likes. I get tired of that, personally; but it may be interesting to explore how that sort of memory would interact with something totally oblique, like "find the light in the meekest eyes." For example.

[MacLeod]

Pretty solid foundation for a game methinks. =) The Memories mechanic sounds like it will end up very fun.

The only problem I foresee is when players end up becoming merely an audience to the Drives of PCs they aren't in control of. I've no problem with being apart of an audience in theory but based on how long it takes for a PC to complete a Drive... it may end up being cumbersome. I suppose this depends on the frequency of Drives... does each PC have to pursue his Drives every time he steps outside of the Griflock, or would it alternate between players? If it alternated, it would give the GM an easy way of weaving the Drive into the mission.

[JoyWriter]

I can't help but imagine this as "the life and times of Final Fantasy summons", although your PCs will get a lot more airtime. I always thought it was strange how these things popped up to do someone's bidding and then went back into the bag afterwards. I've tried to get that feeling right since.

Encouraging character consistency with in game rewards is often good, and in this game it's very tightly implemented. I like that.

On another angle, the griflock should have an incentive not to just hose the PCs: Why does it need to keep them with memory? Perhaps because when you use machine powers, you draw from a central store that is filled by missions. In other words, the griflock wants you around because he needs the power of your old identity to supplement it's own power, but however important they are to it, they are more important to you.

As to memories, I notice they have two uses at the moment; as ways to get powers and as willpower sources. If you allow people to write their own, then there will be a temptation to memories that provide easy drives, impressive powers, and weak other conditions. Perhaps you can balance drive severity vs willpower payoff, depending on how much mathematical leeway you have. In other words following harder drives gives you more willpower.

Next you could make powers dependent on personality quirks, but I'd avoid that, because unlike the other suggestion you can't use something approaching risk adjusted payoff to set it (more risky means times reward by risk ratio giving the same reward). Actually, going off on risk adjusted rewards, that is a good reason not to add a negative to failure; without one you can just use the above calculation to extrapolate from a few balanced examples: "It's twice as likely to fail as that example, so I'll give it twice as many points."

Now back to powers. I do like the idea of refining memories with willpower, and possibly increasing the power of abilities in the same way. I'm not sure how to set powers that are both appropriate to the memories and governed by the willpower system. I'd prefer ideally if the willpower was spent to bring clarity to the old memories, rather than to suddenly remember you can do incredible things! So perhaps the question is how to make powers more valuable without making them simply more epic.

On time, I like the idea of one session = one mission = one day, particularly if you summarise frequently.

[MacLeod]

As to memories, I notice they have two uses at the moment; as ways to get powers and as willpower sources. If you allow people to write their own, then there will be a temptation to memories that provide easy drives, impressive powers, and weak other conditions.

I'm not speaking for Imizaru but I think the intention for memories was this...
1) You receive a generic memory title.
2) Each title has generically named Powers, Drives, Passions and Aversions.
3) Based on this limited information you write the details of the memory, fleshing out what each means to the memory exactly.

I could be wrong... but the above is the assumption I have been making while following this thread. =)

[Imizaru]

Right now I'm working on the order of play, alregly in response to MacLeod's comment

The only problem I foresee is when players end up becoming merely an audience to the Drives of PCs they aren't in control of. I've no problem with being apart of an audience in theory but based on how long it takes for a PC to complete a Drive... it may end up being cumbersome.

because I originally imagined large numbers of Drive missions all happening concurrently. That might still work out, but right now what I'm thinking of is a process like this: Play begins with a Griflock mission. The mission comes with information about the summoner's background and situation and the world in which the mission is based. The players begin mission-building, a part of the role-playing process, using powers etc. to gain information and make plans. The PCs are not required to work together, but of course the players should. I don't know what I want this to look like yet. I bought John Wick's Wilderness of Mirrors because I wanted to see how he handled the mission building process, but it turned out to be "you just make stuff up," and I want something with a bit more structure than that. Has anyone else done something with this kind of thing?

During this, players will begin to identify places where Drive missions can fit in. I am in the process of clarifying Passions and Aversions and how they fit in with memory archetypes, and how that will relate to Drives, so I must remain vague for the time being. But players will choose a Focal Element from the Griflock mission. An FE is an NPC or a location from the Griflock mission. For example, a court mage planning a coup may summon the Griflock to kill all the heirs to the throne and the supporters of the royal family. FEs could include any of the heirs of supporters, the places where they live, or people around the court mage. PCs are forbidden from acting upon the Griflock summoner, no matter what else happens. They choose a FE and then propose a Drive mission to the table. e.g. Drive: Purify:The royal castle is built upon the grave of an ancient demon that is possessing the castle and must be purified. Drive: protect the innocent: The three-year-old illegimate son of the king is living in a nearby village and must be shielded from the cull (Note that this is in direct opposition to the Griflock mission and if it is completed will result in a general failure condition. A PC attemtping to complete this mission may have to fight other PCs who don't want to fail.). The table then accepts or vetoes the mission and they begin to add complications based on the memory type. I think this addresses JoyWriter's concern about powergaming: at least it will be consistent to the standards of the table.

There are three levels of memory, fragment, integrated and embodied. All of them generate Drive missions, but players can place a bid on each one showing how important it is to them. Those with the lowest bids get dropped. Then the other players begin to add complications to the mission. These will be directly tied into the PC's Passions and Aversions, requirements of the Griflock mission, and/or other PCs' missions. The number of complications should be close to the number of the bid. If the PC completes the mission, they will get a number of WP equal to the bid.

Another idea is to have a list of FEs and a list of PC drives and have the group do a quick brainstorm to generate ideas that players can bid on.
Another thought is that the bid number could be the number of scenes required to bring the mission to conclusion, though that sounds like it could be tiresome.

In playing out the missions, I have yet to think of a good turn structure, to avoid downtime among the other players during Drive mission scenes. On the one hand, I think this game might be better off GMless, but I was reading a thread on Story Games that suggested how other players can be given control of not only NPCs but other game elements as well, like the tide of a battle in the distance, the spread of flames, etc. FE elements work to keep all the action in one general location, so this makes it a bit easier to manage.

For example, when the PCs begin culling the heirs to the royal family as per the Griflock mission, the king tries to protect them by summoning the demon from underneath the castle, which is not one demon, but seven individuals that lived as symbiots. Two PCs get into a flying duel with the beasts around the ramparts of the castle while one PC goes down to the village to find the young heir and protect him, and another PC goes into the roots of the castle to purify the gravesite, a process that might level the castle in the process. While one player is acting out their scene, the others can play NPCs or appropriately insert colorful narration of the sky battle, the panicking villagers, or the changes in the castle.

the griflock should have an incentive not to just hose the PCs

Actually, that is the Griflock's main purpose with regard to the PCs. It desires to strip them of their memories and identities and render them into mechanized husks. That is the only way the PCs can die, and they have means to fight it off, but the Griflock wants them to fail and die and will do what it can to ensure this happens. I hope that the Dissonance mechanic can create a downward spiral like in DRYH.

I have more I want to write about. Next I will put forth some of my ideas on resolution mechanics.