Modus Vivendi

[ModusVivendi]

Hello my name is Lucas and this is my first shot at these boards. I have been working on my game system off and on for the past few years and am almost ready to playtest (everything is by hand so I have to type it up). Lots of good people suggested I check it out.

The system that I am working with is a point buy creation and spending system with percentile rules. Races cost points to keep them balanced without having to handicap a concept for a level adjustment. There are no levels either. Templates is the term I am using for classes, and since it is point buy there is no requirement to take a template, they just bring a narrow package of skills together for about 3/4 to 4/5 the cost of buying skills together, almost like a second race purchase.

As I get ready for playtesting I have 2 rule variants that I will use as control factors in the different playtest groups. One brings magick types and weapon categories to the same standard as a skill and the other variant makes them an ability with smaller skill groups governing them.

Skills will be done in such a way that as they progress the dice will no longer have to be rolled for lesser tasks. This allows for a Passive and Focused status for each skill.

The rules will be tweaked to also generate a superhero genre game as well as a space opera/scifi game. That is why I chose the title Modus Vivendi (Way of Life) because it can adapt to any genre because the game is all about how your character chooses to live their life.

What I would like to know is what kind of experiences people have had with point buy systems as well as perventile systems. And in as system like this what is a good point level to set for things as well as average experience to dole out at the end of each session so skilling up is not too fast or too slow.

The website needs a little fleshing out but it can be found at www.modusvivendirpg.webs.com

[trick]

Here's my two cents:

I think point buy systems can be good, but they present two problems. First is balance, making sure that one set of skills is not significantly better than everything else. Point buy is great because it allows for more choice and flexibility; but if you're options are Superman or retard, that's not much of a choice. Your decisions on precisely how to balance it will have a deep effect on the game mechanics. Also on the topic of balance, be very careful with disadvantages.

The second problem is that point buy systems don't really enforce character roles. Using templates can help, but you should make sure that they are tied in some way to your setting. Point buy systems are good at making the 'walking sword' type characters who are nothing but a set of combat stats.

[ModusVivendi]

I know balance will be hard. In point buy systems it is really easy to become the combat monster. Any ideas on how to make "lesser" skills as appealing to a hack/slash player as to a roleplayer. Probably the best thing I can think of is not having XP tied to what you killed.

[trick]

With regards to your first post. Here's my thoughts on using a d100. Dice mechanics can either be additive or subtractive.

• Additive: roll + skill vs DC
• Subtractive: skill - DC vs roll

Here, DC refers to any modifiers that aren't part of the character himself. that make a roll harder. In both cases, a higher value on the left means a success. D&D uses additive mechanics for everything I think. GURPS uses subtractive mechanics for it's regular skill rolls.

In practice, subtractive systems tend to scale poorly, but that depends on how it's done. Thy have a significant advantage over additive systems in that they keep the DC down to a reasonable number. Trying to implement an additive system with a d100 means you'll end up with DC's around 100 or 200.

[trick]

Before I talk about XP, one quick way of making a skill more appealing is to make it 'larger'. For example instead of having a separate skill for chemistry, physics, math etc, just have one for science (or even more extreme, one skill for all academic knowledge).

XP is a system's way of saying to a character "this is what your goal in life is". Tying XP to killing is basically saying "your goal is to kill things" (a nice way of saying "you should be a homicidal maniac"). In the name of roleplaying, you often end up with characters that should be normal people, but act like homicidal maniacs anyways.

There are many other ways of handling XP. One simple way is to make it automatic (e.g. you get 1 skill point per session). There are other ways of handling it too. In Warhammer, characters get XP for all sorts of encounters, whether or not they contain carnage; they also gain Insanity Points as the game progresses. This is cool because it means that character development isn't simply a matter of gaining more skills till you become God himself.

I'm working on a similar mechanic at the moment. Freaky life-threatening things can cause a character to gain Fear or Rage. These have temporary effects, Fear increases defense and decreases while Rage has roughly the opposite effect. Once the event is over, those effects pass. In the long term, the amount of Rage & Fear a character gets drives the character development (both of skill points and insanity points). Basically, the good soldiers are the ones who have undergone mental stress and survived. The good soldiers are also disillusioned and often a bit traumatized.

This brings me to my goal. Hemingways's "In modern war, there is nothing sweet or fitting in your dying. You will die like a dog for no good reason" sets the stage. Fighting is something the characters fear, but are inevitably drawn towards.

My mechanic probably isn't appropriate for your system. You'll have to decide how you want the people in your world to develop and what kind of roles are appropriate.

[ModusVivendi]

I also have a reputation and renown system. Legacy and Legend
Every point goes to your renown or legend.
Points are divvied up to 3 categories Hero, Adventurer, Villain. When you die or retire whichever column has more points is what your legacy is. 100pts Hero 59pts adventurer 10pts villain you have 169 Legend and you have a Heroic Legacy.

[Adam Dray]

Without knowing a lot more about your game, it's hard to tell you if a percentile system is appropriate to your purpose. You might get better feedback if you tell us what your game is about, what the characters do, what the players do, and how the game mechanics make those things happen.

I can talk a little about my experiences with percentile systems, though.

Percentile systems have a couple cool things going for them.

1) The number is exactly the chance of success. Roll dice; compare directly to stat. This is no different than any single-die-roll system (80/100 in a percentile system is no different than 16/20 in a d20 system).

2) You can multiply percentages to get new percentages. Multiply 80% times 90% and you have a 72% chance of succeeding. This does awesome things, but since the math is hard, it's best left to computer games, not tabletop games.

3) The 1-100 range gives you a lot of resolution. Reward systems can give +1% increases to skills, for example.


Percentile systems have a few disadvantages.

1) You're always trying to roll low to succeed. Rolling high is more fun for some players.

2) Most of the math you do with numbers that can range up to 100 has a high handling time. Most %tile systems use subtractive modifiers (e.g., roll d100 with a -20 penalty because you're wounded). Quick: What's 72-47? Worse, some %tile systems multiply or divide these 2-digit numbers. What's 72% times 47%? What's 67% divided by 4?

3) Do you really need 1% resolution? Most people can really only hold 4-7 numbers in their head, so 4-7 is probably the right cardinality for ranges.

4) A lot of percentile systems end up letting stats grow beyond 100%, which seems bizarre. It suddenly becomes clear that the 100% rating doesn't mean anything special. If you're going to do that, why use a percentile? Is a Strength 140 character really 40% stronger than the maximum? 40% stronger than what?

5) Percentile dice often involve bizarre dice and bizarre table rules about dice. I hate actual d100's -- you know the ones that look like golf balls? And I hate having to declare which d10 is my 100's. Sure you, can use the 00,10,20...90 "d10," but not everyone has one.


Often, there's no reason a designer can't convert a d100 system to a d10 or d20 system with the same results and less handling time in play. D&D 3E/4E, for example, has 5% resolution with most bonuses in the +0 to +10 range, which is pretty manageable math for most people, plus you get to aim for high rolls rather than trying to roll under (low) to win.

You could convert your game to a d10 system easily. Just divide all your numbers and points by 10. Switch things around so you roll high.

[RabbitHoleGames]

This is the User formerly known as Modus Vivendi. As my wife and I are developing multiple games and doing design work as well, our umbrella name is Rabbit Hole Games & Design. Therefore I have set up this username to keep from confusing myself on my own postings.

[Vulpinoid]

Points are divvied up to 3 categories Hero, Adventurer, Villain. When you die or retire whichever column has more points is what your legacy is.

Just wanted to say that I think this is a nice twist that lends itself to some fun types of stories.

• One character might have a really villainous reputation; the story begins with them having 100 more points in villain than anything else. They might have had an epiphany about an impending death and they've deciding that they don't want to be remembered for being evil. Suddenly it's a race against time to do enough good things to counter-act their reputation (they might even have tendencies and habits that keep forcing them to do evil).
• Another character might not have accumulated much reputation at all. They might just be interested in doing enough of "anything" to get remembered.

There's plenty of other options that come to mind with this as well.

Cool.

V

[RabbitHoleGames]

Those are the kind of roleplaying hooks I am looking for. Like playing 7th sea and starting with a few points in a bg that need to be resolved before they go away.

In the Traits/Flaws, Advantages/Disadvantages there are some things that can be taken that start you with bonuses to those. Depending on the character concept or story either Hero or Villain points are an advantage. Being a rogue with too many hero is like a Robin Hood, while it may also lead villainous associates think of you as a wildcard when doing joint jobs.

[RabbitHoleGames]

[RabbitHoleGames]

Statistics
Power: The strength and force through which a character acts. This stat governs how much the character can carry and how much extra damage they can manage to muscle into a blow. Power lifters and fighters normally have a higher power stat.

Agility: How quick and nimble a character is. Agility helps in a variety of skills, like dodge and tumbling. A gymnast would be someone with a high agility stat.

Coordination: This is the stat that most combat characters will be concerned with. This is the stat that controls their eye-hand movements. Besides combat this is well adjusted for craftsmanship and other skills that take meticulous actions of the hands.

Endurance: Quite literally how long a character can endure physical trials. Runners, swimmers, and other athletes are likely to have high scores in this stat.

Vitality: This determines how healthy a character is. Resistance to poisons to the amount of damage they can take. A character that has a high vitality would be a fighter that comes back from a beating in the early rounds.

Competence: Competence is a lot like physical power or coordination, only on a mental level. This is your intelligence and the use of that intellect for knowledge purposes. This is also one of the governing stats of magic. Characters with high competence levels are mages and scholars.

Willpower: This is the vitality and endurance of the mental world. Sometimes when the body has given out the mind must force it's way onward. This is also the stat that pushes the character's will onto his surroundings. Once again mages have this in spades, but a good warrior would do good to carry around a good deal of it as well.

Cunning: Problem solving and outwitting another character. Sleight of hand, games of chance, and other skills of that nature use this stat to add to their effectiveness. Rogues, scouts, and others who think on their feet have high cunning scores.

Influence: Anything that can sway the hearts and minds of others. Charm, seduction, leadership, and intimidation are some of the skills tied to this one. Bards, captains, and politicians are some of those that make the best use of this stat.

Instinct: The five senses of a character's perception range. Vision, hearing, and smell, as well as knowing where you are in relation to other objects. This is why the Instinct stat is added to all passive numbers. Of all character types it is the animals that have the best instincts.
 

[Bill_White]

Two questions: Do you see this game as doing anything different than, say, GURPS, and if so what?

Second, can you talk a little more about what you expect your playtest groups to do?

[RabbitHoleGames]

Mr White, the first question is a little hard to answer since I have never had the opportunity to play GURPS. I will have to find a gamestore nearby to learn about GURPS.

The second question is easier. Since my system is completely point buy a la White Wolf, Hero System, and 7th Sea / L5R. First and foremost is always of course to see if it is fun, but because of pointbuy I am recruiting a few "Munchkins" / MinMaxers to see just how badly they can break the system at creation. I also have 2 variants of the main rules to see which is better. Having all the weapons / magic types as skills themselves as well as having them be abilities with a smaller set of skills to facilitate their use. For these I am going to try a semi simple method of test.

Quicktest Groups- 1 group for each set of rules. 3, 1 month 1 time a week sessions with tweaks between each month of play.

Longhaul Groups- 1 group for each set of rules, played over 4 months in 1 time a week sessions. This should show how many and if any, house rules spring up to fix things and see how close they are to the tweaks from feedback from the quicktest grouops.

[Simon C]

Lucas, I think you may be missing the point of some of the replies you've received.  I think what Bill is getting at is this: There are a LOT of "generic" systems out there, each with their own slight differences.  Some of them, like GURPS and Savage Worlds are very popular.  Some of them are very obscure.  The ones that succeed tend to have their own niche in the generic RPG market.  GURPS is "realistic" with sourcebooks for everything, and an extremely detailed point-buy system tested over vany years.  I also think GURPS gets by a lot on being older and therefore more well known and better trusted than other games.  Savage Worlds has carved a niche for itself with its mantra "Fast, Furious, Fun!" It does something GURPS doesn't, which is get off the ground with minimal prep, play through very quickly, and allow you to fight big battles quickly and easily

I think what people are trying to tell you is that you need to tell us what your system does better than other systems.  What's its niche?  Then you need to make sure that the system you're writing supports that niche.  You need to know what experience people will get out of playing your game, and how the system supports them having this experience.  It's cool to write a "generic" or "universal" RPG, but you need to know what it brings to the table that other systems don't, otherwise they may as well play something they already own and know.

You also seem to be making a lot of unexamined assumptions about how an RPG should work.  For example, I don't see any analysis of why characters need a race, a class, a list of stats and skills, and experience points that improve those skills.  What do those things bring to your game?  Why are you using them, other than the fact that a number of other games use them? 

My sense is that you've had a lot of experience playing in a relatively small set of games.  I think the best thing to do to help yourself as a game designer is to play a lot of games, and to play a lot of games that are nothing like what you've played before.  Just reading games is a useful excercise as well.  That doesn't have to break your pocket book.  There are a lot of great free games out there.  I compiles a list of ones I like at my website, here: http://simoncarryer.googlepages.com/links

Of those, "The Pool" and "The Shadow of Yesterday" are particularly well known and loved.  Even if you hate the games, and would never want to play them, reading them will give you a good idea of the range of possibilities in RPG design.

Cheers,

Simon