Death / start over (split)

[HeTeleports]

The Power 19 is a great tool for crystallizing your thoughts about a game, but ... [truncation mine]...
What works better: intrigue us, then ask about something specific.

Yet another long-time lurker, first-time poster. (This might be my second or third, but I'm *really* not counting.)

For my game idea...
Intrigue statement: What if the central mode of this game's overt Simulationist-leaning was 'Character,' but the setting and system is one that leads often to character death? In this game, you may black-out but there is no death. Instead, you'll find your character waking up in a new place, new situation, and new conflict.

A videogame inspired this mechanic. Spider-man for the Sega Genesis, I think. When your health reaches zero, the game blacks out and fades to Spidey, pacing in a jail cell with a guard asleep nearby. A menu says, "Continue or Game Over." If you click Game over, Spidey sits down. If you click continue, Spidey punches the guard, breaks out the cell and ... you continue in the level where you were.
Except for that 'implausible' re-entry point, I was inspired to do something like this for players exploring their character.
So, my questions are two-fold.
1) What are some similar death mechanics that other designers have used/players have seen?
2) What are popular solutions to GMs for players who want to be 'written back into the game'?

(edited to un-sticky - RE)

[Lance D. Allen]

HeTeleports,

Those are some excellent questions, and indeed, an intriguing idea. You'd be far better off asking them in your own thread than hijacking this one which is more on advice about *how* to present. If your post is meant in the same vein, then it's not a bad example.. Start with a premise, figure out what you're unsure of, then ask those questions. But if you're actually intending discussion of your questions (which I rather hope you are) another thread would be appropriate.

Also, even though you're not counting, the forum is. That was your second post.

[Ron Edwards]

I've split this topic into its own thread for all the reasons Lance mentioned.

HeTeleports, that idea is a fine one to work with, although it has been done by a number of games. One of them which sounds almost exactly the same as your description is Multiverser. I say this not to shut you down but to alert you to quite a bit of existing discussion and intellectual/play history for the idea. That can give you a better foundation for deciding what your design will be.

Best, Ron

[HeTeleports]

....it  has been done by a number of games. One of them which sounds almost exactly the same as your description is Multiverser. I say this not to shut you down but to alert you to quite a bit of existing discussion and intellectual/play history for the idea.

I'd like to dedicate some time to collecting and condensing some of that discussion and play history.
As a relatively useful link, TV Trope's Plot Armor fairly describes the phenomenon's effect on a narrative.
Referring to its effect on role-playing games, Wikipedia's Plot Immunity article happens to forget to list any role-playing effects... except the one where the player says, "Now my guy's dead.. what NPCs should I play?"

Both articles describe one use of the mechanic -- but in a very limited sense. Even the TV Trope's "table-top games" examples are referring to ways that allow players to mitigate damage to their characters.

The Wikipedia's entry on Multiverser's scriff material seems to delve a little more into the mechanic I'm interested in -- but it could serve as another form of 'plot immunity.' (if Mr. Young is around, I'd like to say, "I love your work -- including most of your essays.")

Maybe I can phrase my interest this way:
I'm interested in seeing whether there are any formalized rule sets that describe how to deal with a lack of 'plot immunity' -- up to (but not including) the point of death.

Most players know that death is a possibility. Whole skill sets are designed around avoiding it.
On the other hand, success (ie: further adventures) is another possibility that people aim for.
In the middle, it could be said, is where the adventures take place.
On the death end of possibilty, there's other stuff that could happen but replaces death.

The Multiverser example is a great one -- and the dynamic seems vital to the nature of the game. (Each death leads a character to the next universe.)


What are some other examples?

[contracycle]

Well, "lose a level" and "pay X thousand GP" are the old school workarounds.

Prince of Persia Sands of Time has a time rewind function that works as death-avoidance.  It would be possible in TT to have a system that treated death somewhat similarly, in allowing the outcome to be a sort of "vision" with which the PC's are forewarned.

[Ron Edwards]

The very interesting fantasy RPG Hahlmabrea has a mechanic like that, Gareth, basically the "Oops" spell which allows the players to re-start a scene. It's sort of funny because in-game, the other characters are not allowed to know why the sorcerer cast it. The character is reduced to insisting, "Dammit, I just know, do not go in there!"

But that seems a little bit angled away from the bona fide, your guy dies, in which instead of negating that, it's a legitimate part of the fiction which sets up for something else.

Resurrection and similar mechanics which reach all the way back to the mid-70s don't really apply to that either, I think, because they are treated as tactical knockbacks at worst.

Anyway, Youssef and all, another title of interest is Nephilim, in which the characters are possessing spirits, but the host personalities and skills are quite significant - so "death" really is the death of a unique character, you don't merely move "your guy" into a new host without serious changes taking place. I'll have to do a little digging in the books to get a more complete list.

Best, Ron

[Lance D. Allen]

Interestingly, (though I'm not sure how pertinent it might be to this discussion) I have done something similar to a mix of what Gareth and Ron both said in one of my games.

The PCs are spirits, temporarily possessing human hosts for the purposes of accomplishing some mission. An ability which can be picked up by the PCs allows them to rewind a small bit, and treat the retconned fiction as though it was something that happened in an alternate reality which they brushed up against and managed to sense. This has uses other than removing a death, but it can be used to do that. The ability isn't considered especially strong, because the death of a host isn't a large mechanical set-back, though its effects in the fiction may be considerably greater.

[whiteknife]

Another game with an interesting death mechanic is Dread: the first book of Pandemonium. In that game when you die you come back to life at full health and double maximum fury (used for a variety of ass-kicking things) in order to be able to go on a crazy last ditch rampage, after which you die for real and start a new character. Not exactly the kind of thing you were talking about, but it's a thought.