Aethera and the kill power 19

[Librabys]

[Noclue]

Um...its just the Power 19. The kill part is what Luke thinks should be done to this particular set of questions.

[Librabys]

[Librabys]

Noclue: right, but still, it gives you a nice outline i guess

[Librabys]

ok sorry i just understood: the system of questions is named simply power 19 and killpower 19 is only Luke's subject... sorry i was comfused

[Ron Edwards]

Hi folks,

Please treat the second (correct) list as the one to respond to.

Best, Ron

[Noclue]

Okay, to make with the trying to be helpful...

1. My reading of this is your game is about Epic Adventure where good and evil are not black and white, with various fantasy/sci-fi color thrown in. What makes an adventure epic in your eyes? How does your game foster epicness? What does your game do to encourage moral ambiguity?

2. This seems to boil down to "They adventure." This life goal sounds interesting. How does that function in the game? Does your game really focus on all these things? Can I really play a guy who just wants friendship, do no epic adventuring, and not ruin your fun?

3. That's not a very helpful answer. The question is about the kind of play experience I'm going to have playing your game. Its trying to get at what behaviors I will be engaged in while having massive fun. What emotions are you trying to evoke in me? What do you want me to do and feel?

4. Actually, I sorta like this answer. Why is it fun for you?

5. Outlining the character personality and goals is not "obvious." Not all games do it and not all do it the same way. How do you do it?
"Realistic epic heroes" is an oxymoron. Epic heroes are not realistic they are epic.

6. I wouldn't invite a discussion of GNS at this point, and especially not this way. Can we just say you want to reward tactics; you want a story and you want there to be a world to explore. You slip in the fact that you want a party with a unified quest down here. I'd move this up to #2. Its an important design goal and won't design itself. I'd like more about what you want me as a player to be doing while I'm playing. Am I sitting around during combat waiting for my turn? Can I have any effect on the fiction other than through my character? Do I know the other PC's goals so that I be part of their story, or do I only know what they divulge to me?

7. Be careful. If I'm putting points in awesome warrior dude, its probably cuz I want to be in some awesome fights. It may not be fun for me if you keep throwing me into social situations where I suck (unless I want to be in social situations where I suck, of course. Does your game have any way to identify if I want to be a fish out of water?).

8. Who controls the story? Who decides what is, and is not, coherent?

9. Seems to answer #8 a bit. The DM controls the story?
No, it's not obvious that player buy-in is a result of a good DM and good Players. If WoW is better, they will play that (and should). Its your job as designer to make a game that is fun for your target players. It's not their job to care, regardless of your ability to make it fun.

10. Your resolution mechanics are tactical. Based on skills and stats.

11. Your answer in 10 does not show how your game reinforces what your game is about in #1, i.e. epic adventure and PCs driven by morally ambiguous goals. These mechanics don't seem to lend anything to the story and exploration design goals in #6.

12. Sounds interesting.

13. Flexible chargen, got it. Can I improve my social stat by practicing with my sword?

14. I'm not seeing anything in the system about opening minds and questioning beliefs. Where is that stuff?

15. And yet you chose combat as your example for the game resolution mechanics...
Why is mental health important in this game? How does a sanity stat reinforce epic adventure?

16. waiting.

17. I agree. Is that enough for you?

[Noclue]

I cross posted and referred to the first list...ooops!

[markhaselb]

14. I'm not seeing anything in the system about opening minds and questioning beliefs. Where is that stuff?

15. And yet you chose combat as your example for the game resolution mechanics...
Why is mental health important in this game? How does a sanity stat reinforce epic adventure?

This is only mentioned in the first post, I guess Libraby used the post from my thread as a template because he said that he was not finished editing the post. The answers past question 12) are the same text as in my post. No problem though

[Librabys]

you are right, Markhaselb, i used yours as a template and the answers from 12 in the non-finished first post are yours.


To answer to you, Noclue,

First thank you for helping me to understand better what all these concepts of game desing are really about

I will try to answer my best as you did:

1. My reading of this is your game is about Epic Adventure where good and evil are not black and white, with various fantasy/sci-fi color thrown in. What makes an adventure epic in your eyes? How does your game foster epicness? What does your game do to encourage moral ambiguity?

-What makes an adventure epic is the legendary, mythic aspect. The heroes if they play a while will have a role to play in worlds, times and planes, think about the old final fantasys, how much it was epic to grow strong and determined enough to change the destiny of the world(s)?
-My game include epicness by encouraging the players to be adventurers and heroes (the quests will ask them to be at least) and to make them face tragic destinies and doomed times, but allow them to gather enought power to eventually change the course of history. (this is my rebel side maybe)
-I encourage some shades and colors. I would just not accept someone who kill to kill because he is evil. It must have a reason for all this killing. was he an abused beaten child? his he vengeful from this past lack of power and traumatism? his he in fact a very sad and desparate being? how could he react if a glimse of an happy childhood memory cam to pierce trough the shadows of sufferings?. (but this part is a little bit the masters job too... )

2. This seems to boil down to "They adventure." This life goal sounds interesting. How does that function in the game? Does your game really focus on all these things? Can I really play a guy who just wants friendship, do no epic adventuring, and not ruin your fun?

Yes it would be like a bardic style guy in the stats probably, and even if he follows the others in crazy adventures(well the game IS about a team of hero going for adventures of glory and wonders, if the character stays at the pub  ans flirt all the way through, i will ask the player to invent another character, or to make this one less lazy. If he goes to adventure, he will have his chance to use his social skills plenty of times, but i admit i gave my exemple with a classical dagger combat

3. That's not a very helpful answer. The question is about the kind of play experience I'm going to have playing your game. Its trying to get at what behaviors I will be engaged in while having massive fun. What emotions are you trying to evoke in me? What do you want me to do and feel?

This is an hard one. I suppose it is about quests, riddles, puzzles, plots,... Usual plots you know, that can include romance or wathever emotions or behaviors, but the system remember is arount these 3 aspects: social, mental, physic. Im not sure to know how to answer it hahahah. The quests as i do them is i prepare events for places and the players wander in the map, and enconter these things in arbitral order, but slowly see the large picture and how all these things are related. Im not sure how to answer else than that...

4. Actually, I sorta like this answer. Why is it fun for you?

Because it let my imagination go far and wild I also like the color of it, and the particuliar color of my setting, but this is another story.

5. Outlining the character personality and goals is not "obvious." Not all games do it and not all do it the same way. How do you do it?
"Realistic epic heroes" is an oxymoron. Epic heroes are not realistic they are epic.

-It have a section for that on the character sheet. I talk with my players and ask them questions. I will include this help in the masters section. I try to know who is this character they try to cast and help them to give him life. I also explain them the setting to inspire them. finally if they are not able to answer I give them suggestions following what i think they try to do. But really this is still to work on. Ideally the player have a character in mind and we just have to "cast" it on the sheet and fill the lines
-realistic in the way they are coherent living beings with realistic feelings (or attempt to), not some demigod of war, epic in the way it is possible for them to achieve miracles anyway. But as you define it, it is probably more epic than realistic

6. I wouldn't invite a discussion of GNS at this point, and especially not this way. Can we just say you want to reward tactics; you want a story and you want there to be a world to explore. You slip in the fact that you want a party with a unified quest down here. I'd move this up to #2. Its an important design goal and won't design itself. I'd like more about what you want me as a player to be doing while I'm playing. Am I sitting around during combat waiting for my turn? Can I have any effect on the fiction other than through my character? Do I know the other PC's goals so that I be part of their story, or do I only know what they divulge to me?

  in the combat you can do whatever you like, but following your action dices. The story is the storyteller's fiction, and you can modify it with your character only... d&d like... you know only what your character knows etc. but your character can know something you ignore (often a knowledge test)

7. Be careful. If I'm putting points in awesome warrior dude, its probably cuz I want to be in some awesome fights. It may not be fun for me if you keep throwing me into social situations where I suck (unless I want to be in social situations where I suck, of course. Does your game have any way to identify if I want to be a fish out of water?).

I just try to equilibrate the 3 aspects social/mental/physical to please everybody, and so that every character have a moment of glory and a moment of weakness.

8. Who controls the story? Who decides what is, and is not, coherent?

The all mighty Storyteller and the mechanics of course. (that was invented by the only storyteller of this game )

9. Seems to answer #8 a bit. The DM controls the story?
No, it's not obvious that player buy-in is a result of a good DM and good Players. If WoW is better, they will play that (and should). Its your job as designer to make a game that is fun for your target players. It's not their job to care, regardless of your ability to make it fun.

I know that, but no game is fun if the people is not wanting to have fun. that said, Of course I want to give material that provide a fun mechanic, a deep and colorful setting and a game master section with reflections on storytelling and how to bring some atmosphere, and a very fun list of treasures, places, traps, encounters, and even adjectives and sample descriptions classified by environments (as a narative help) and everything that i will think to include and judge good enough  

10. Your resolution mechanics are tactical. Based on skills and stats.

Yes, Sir!

11. Your answer in 10 does not show how your game reinforces what your game is about in #1, i.e. epic adventure and PCs driven by morally ambiguous goals. These mechanics don't seem to lend anything to the story and exploration design goals in #6.

This was a combat example. it does have mechanics for social and mental aspects as well and finally some things are not obvious in the mechanic but are told as roleplay suggestions in the book

12. Sounds interesting.

It seem interesting for me as well more playtest will confirm.

13. Flexible chargen, got it. Can I improve my social stat by practicing with my sword?

well now that you say it it would be nice to checkmark a stat when you use it (or a skill) in order to be able to improve it.

14. I'm not seeing anything in the system about opening minds and questioning beliefs. Where is that stuff?

In the Storyteller's section, in the setting and inside the quests, so they where invisible to you as i did not go deep in these aspects

15. And yet you chose combat as your example for the game resolution mechanics...
Why is mental health important in this game? How does a sanity stat reinforce epic adventure?

yes, combat is a nice example, no?  It is the mechanic for action scenes, where the speed is important. for a social conflict, it is even easyer, as you act when you like usualy (or it could be resolved by a  presence comparative check if everybody want to speak in the same time)
mental health is useful because it include the cthulhu mythos(and every human mythos as the world have the same astral plane as the earth) and some black magic or horrible places can be very harmful for your character's sanity. It is a mental stat. It is not reinforcing the epicness but i like it, and a mad epic character can be fun, and well, its for fun (I'm a Lovecraft's fan) Ah! forgot to told, my land is somehow very dark and gothy by places

16. waiting.

You shall not be deceived

17. I agree. Is that enough for you?

About how magic is our world? I see you have eyes to see and a heart to feel, bro!

[Librabys]

I forgot to ask: would you like to play such a game? why? (to anybody reading it)

[Simon C]

Hi,

Welcome to the Forge.  I'm worried that for what you're trying to do, this forum is not going to be very useful.

Firstly, you don't have any specific questions.  We need to know what you're having trouble with before we can help you.

Second, the focus of this forum tends to be towards very focused games.  Games which reinforce what they are about through mechanics.  So, for example, a game that is about "Epicness" would have mechanics for reinforcing that feel, and very little else.  I recommend this thread: http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=28331.0 for someone who is going through exactly the same issue.

If you want to make a freewheeling, kitchen sink style of game, with everything you like thrown in there to make the perfect game for you, I completely applaud your effort.  You should understand though that it's going to be very hard for anyone else to critique your ideas.  We can't decide if a mechanic is going to be fun for you.  Only you can do that.

On the other hand, if you want to make a game that successfully conveys a certain feel, that is "about" something (and I would argue that all successfull published games do so), you have a lot of work ahead of you.  We can help with that, but it's going to be long and probably hard.

Let us know which you want.

[Librabys]

Thank you you Simon C
I see what you mean. I totally understand what it look like lol.

Just that i began this game i was a teen and i am 28 now, and I want to finish my game whatever difficulties it can represent.
It is a nice game. plyers likes it already. what I have to do is structure my stuff into a book and i am doing it... I was just hunting some tips in fact, and im served well when you said: 

"On the other hand, if you want to make a game that successfully conveys a certain feel, that is "about" something (and I would argue that all successfull published games do so), you have a lot of work ahead of you.  We can help with that, but it's going to be long and probably hard."

Now that is what I want. Im not afraid about work or time....
I will think about it and I shall come back with a clear: my game is about______ ...

but for now, i will gather your nice tips and work harder to explain it better next time

Thank you !

[Ron Edwards]

Well, hold on here - there is no "Forge game" to hold up as the way it's done here, and no reason to throw cold water on a game which isn't like most others. If it's a kitchen-sink, teen-written game, and if the author wants to develop it for its virtues, we need to respect that and help make it into that kind of game.

Granted, we can point out principles or examples the author may not have encountered, or suggest a way to do things he or she may not have thought of, or point out problematic issues ...

... but this forum better help people with this sort of game, in addition to whatever mechanicsy-focused designs come along, or I'll shut the damned thing down.

If you want to help with this kind of game, then do it, and if you don't, you don't ... but don't claim the forum itself mandates the types of RPGs that do and don't get help here.

Best, Ron

[Librabys]

what is a kitchen-sink game?

Well It WAS teen-written, but 20 after genreations of rules or so, and constant evolution of the world arournd make it more like written on a 10 years span

what do you think about this combat mechanic by the way?
I've never seen before such a concept, namely that you know your results before to use them at something....and at the end of a turn, it is less a big deal to have no more actions to defend, as the blows are weaker... And only one throw for initiative, hits and damages...
I think it is new, doesn't it? 
If some of you are willing to test it and give me a little feed-back, i would be grateful too!

Some implements for physical conflicts:
Number of actions (dices) = Agility

attack = D+ Precision
parry = D+ Precision
avoid = D+ Agility
move = D+ (agility) foots by action (compared for chasing)

I will try to give a more compelling example soon with a social conflict as well...

Second, i think I would replace the 10 sided dices by playing cards. It is nice to have a "13 sided" dice with less possibilities of simultaneous actions (only 4 times each number) and probably special effect for jokers

It is also cheaper to buy... and easyer to carry... ah yer and with this system, you need them to be stable and readable for one round, and a dice is so fast rolled I only think it is more intuitive with the mechanic (having already known random circomstances and trying to use them at the best)

Thank you Mr Edwards for going to the front for defending my wet papers from the kitchens sink, full of peanut butter and tea