[Mage Blade] Let's Play a Game...

[Lance D. Allen]

Matthew,

Your goals seem fairly lofty. These are the things you want to accomplish early on, before the adventure has kicked into high gear?

I realize I completely failed to make that clear.. You will probably resolve most, if not all, of your Foundational Goals within the first several sessions. From the fictional and mechanical results of your resolved Goals, you will set more goals, which will continue to carry the story forward. All goals after Foundational Goals will push toward or detract from Endgame, and you will get more points as you go, which can be spent on character advancement or reinvested into further goals.

[Ron Edwards]

Achieve the next rank in the necromantic order - 20

Marry the lord's daughter - 20

Visit the old tribal shaman's grave - 10

[MacLeod]

Hm, alright... Let me revise mine then.

~*~| Investigate our once living master's organization in order to find more slave camps. [20]

~*~| Scout out a good location to establish a temporary, shabby base of operations where my newly liberated friends and I can hang out and shoot the breeze. [20]

~*~| Seek information pertaining to the fate of the ol' Grandenwater Estate. [10]

[telperion]

Ahldam's foundational goals:

Continue to improve my abilities as a blacksmith until I have achieved master status [20]
Customize a scale mail breast with my family crest on it as my entry into armory [20]
Learn to home brew golden mead [10]

[Lance D. Allen]

Tel,

Your goals appear, to me, to be somewhat problematic. I think they are great "finish the concept" goals, but I don't know that I see how they get your character in motion, or cause him to cross paths with other characters.

Is there something you've got in mind that I'm failing to see? Or do you maybe want to change one or two of them?

[telperion]

Lance,

How about --

Continue my pursuit of becoming a master blacksmith by taking some of my axe blades to market for trade.
Find a suitable bit of scale mail in the market for work on my entry into armory.
Seek instruction on brewing golden mead 'home brew' from the head brew master in a tavern near the market.

Do these seem to put me in motion to cross the path of the other characters? Either on the way to market, or while I'm in the market trading goods or seeking instruction?

Tel

[Lance D. Allen]

Tel,

I think I see what you're going for here. You're trying to set this guy up as someone who will be "accidentally" swept up into the story, right? Your goals involve him going to a public place and moving around talking to people. What I'm seeing you desiring happen here is that you overhear something, or in some other way get caught up in something that will be fun.

You do not want to trade your axes, buy a breastplate, and talk to the brew master, then head home to continue your daily life, correct?

[telperion]

Lance,

Right on! It will just be a spontaneous natural extension of his 'everyday' living, but will meet his stirring desire for 'action' as your rather stereotypical dwarf.

JayMc

[Lance D. Allen]

Alright then, Jay(?), it could use some tweaking, but I think it'll do for the purposes of this exercise.

I think, for the most part, I've got what I need from the phased steps of this thread. Choosing Foundational Goals is the last step before beginning live play.


What would happen next: At this point, we'd sit down and start roleplaying. I as the GM would be looking at your Goals, and weaving them together. I have no power to come up with shit on the fly; Everything I've got is in service to your stated Goals. Fairly soon, you'll start to accomplish your Goals, and you'll get the payout in Advancement Points. Some of these, you'll probably invest into improving your character, but others, you'll want to reinvest into new Goals. Goals at this point fall into one of two categories: Rising Actions and Falling Actions. Rising Actions are Goals which push toward Endgame, and increment a number called the Endcount. Falling Actions are Goals which distract or detract from Endgame, and deincrement the Endcount. The idea behind this is that the pacing of the game is set organically, based on the types of goals you set and pursue. When the Endcount reaches a certain number (200 for this group, incidentally; The points you got to buy your Foundational Goals is an even split of the Endcount value amongst all players) then the game enters Endgame, and we resolve one way or the other whether or not one or more of you end up ruling the only orcish empire.

What I've learned:

- Color and Context is definitely important. I couldn't sell this game without a setting, even if I wanted to. When set before two groups (now) of independent, creative people, they've floundered to various degrees on Goal setting and character creation without some background color.

- I definitely need to expand my horizons. Both instances of the experiment have resulted in 'WTF?' moments, that, when I thought about them charitably, were actually pretty cool ideas. I mean, "Eat the Sun"? Who thinks of stuff like that?

- Clarity. I had to make less comments overall in this thread because, even though I missed a crucial bit, I was able to build off of my mistakes in the last one, and present what you needed to know more clearly.

- A bunch of other stuff that's hard to put into words. Chief among my current impressions is that I've hit on a winner in this overall system.

What I'd like before we close:

Your overall impressions. There was some discussion during the process, but now I'd like to know what you thought of this whole process. Specifically, does it make you interested in playing this campaign? Does it make you interested in your character, and your fellow players' characters? It works for me. I'd definitely like to see how your characters would come together to shape the story. It's definitely a pity that I am doing this purely as an exercise in this portion of the game, because I'd love to complete characters and actually play.

One thing that was brought up in the previous thread (mostly in whispers with Mike Holmes, for those who might have been reading along) was that by determining the Endgame, you take much of the fun out of playing. I disagreed, but I did say I'd bring up his concerns over here. My thoughts are that the Endgame gives a general shape to the end, but doesn't prescribe enough of it to take any of the discovery out of it. The events that happen on the way to Endgame are likely to have a very large effect on the specific events of Endgame. With this exact Endgame Goal, I'm sure I could run through several different iterations with different characters, and come up with vastly different events in the Endgame.

So, I'd like your thoughts on:

- The process, overall
- Whether or not this makes for a compelling situation and characters
- Whether knowing the general shape of the ending seems like it would damage your fun.
- Anything else.

Oh! And one last thing: This is the write up I did of the Elements as they might reflect personalities, with a few footnotes on the original text from Johnstone, who did some critique for me. Prime Spheres

How well did your expectations of what the Elements meant match up with mine? Would you change your Element now that you've read my writeup?

[DWeird]

I liked the ability to set the Endgame in advance. Gets us all on the same page on what we expect from the game, without actually revealing any intimate details. More than once, I've found myself thinking of the endgame goal as a poster for a movie - big flash, main characters, main event.

I have mixed feelings about the fact that the Endgame is the sole means of focus for the game, however. What stops this game from floundering in as many directions as there are characters, if not more? Is bringing in the focus something the GM does? Something the players have to take care of? We didn't really play, so we there's no way to see if my concern is actually relevant, but in case it is...

Falling Actions? What the hell? In game which is supposed to be about moving towards the Endgame, you introduce a way to go away from it? Whyyy? I mean, I can see how tying in the Endgame advancement solely to character goals could create artificial situations where somebody has completed a personal goal, the Endgame counter goes up, but there's no movement in the fiction that would explain why that counter just went up... But if that's the issue, there are better ways around that - whenever someone completes a lump of goals, they get to narrate off-character, showing how exactly the Endgame is creeping up. In our case... Large swathes of orcs gearing up for war, rulers of neighboring countries being assasinated, a powerful neighbour striking a secret deal with the orcish rulership, those sort of things.

I'd also like more connection between the characters - not saying they should team up all-party like, but I would like some assurance, straight from the start, that their paths would cross in interesting ways. Maybe this would be mitigated by being face-to-face ("Hey, what if our two guys..!"), but if not, maybe allow one foundational goal be created by another player, as a "I'd like you to move in this general direction" thing? For instance, I'd love to see Ron's character reanimate some of Ahldam's dwarven ancestors. Lance is likely to get close to the wilder parts of the world sooner or later, and Ahldam would likely follow... And there's obviously some connection that can be forged between Snikskab and Asmerith, but I don't really *feel* it, and would love to get some guidance in the matter.

Just a few rough ideas.

As for Element... I chose Air because I kept thinking of my character as "lofty." Had I seen the Prime Spheres text first, I'd have likely chosen Water something or other, maybe Fire, but now I definitelly see Snikskab as Air Descendant. Not knowing what the element is "supposed" to mean helped a little, I think - now I have a general feel of my character on the one hand, and an archetype on the other. They don't exactly match, and there's some healthy tension that I like and would like to explore.

[telperion]

I think setting the endgame in advance creates some realistic boundaries for the expression of the tale. I'm still wondering if any character - NPC or otherwise would ever really get to 'rule the orcish empire'. Seeing as how there are slaves and racial enemies involved in the original character creation, I would expect that there is a possibility the endgame might not be accomplished, but that in achieving this level of 'non-accomplishment' there would be engaging and fully satisfying gameplay nonetheless. I'm wondering if running an endgame game in the ground would also qualify as a successful session of gameplay for this campaign/scenario/series on which we are brain storming??? It seems like quite an interesting form to pursue at this point. I couldn't get the link to work for the information on the Prime Spheres so I can't really speak to that item at all. As far as whether this is a compelling situation in which ti start the game.... I was a bit hesitant on my goall setting because I wasn't sure how general or specific the GM or the game would need it to be. I can see my charcter Ahldam in the market getting involved with any number of the charcters potentially by showing of his weaponsmith by parading his axes and then becoming swept into the story by rumor mill... Or he could be working with the 'mead master' on learning from him and he could have a need for some aid with retrieving a stolen cart with 8 barrels of his best mead that was taken by an orcish band a
number of days before, and might I be willing to trade services for instruction? And in this way get further involved in a coup or resistance or further understanding of how far the orcs have gained a foothold, and how badly resistance should be mustered. In my character's case, I see him as a strict antagonist to the entire endgame of 'rule the orcish empire', but as a participant in the motion of the game as a gestalt toward that resolve, it is quite compelling to work to fit in goals that aren't so specific to endgame that they seem contrived to s3erve the plot, but to come up with goals which can be naturally woven into the story either by myself as player or by the creativity of a good GM. I don't really know enough about the gaming system to remove the hesitancy I felt when creating my foundational goals. I was stuck with the thoughts of 'AM I going to by narrating my involvement, or is a GM going to weave my player in?'... I think it gives me ( as a player ) more latitude if I have control of how to get into the plot moving toward the endgame than if the GM is responsible. If it is a GM driven plot evolution I think my beginning motion tenets, or foundation goals would tend to be more pecifically assignable to make the jobn for the GM easy to piece together the initial set and setting....

[Lance D. Allen]

D, (I'm pretty sure I asked your name the other day on IRC, but I'm horrible with names. I usually have to admit to having forgotten your name a couple times before I really get it)

More than once, I've found myself thinking of the endgame goal as a poster for a movie - big flash, main characters, main event.

That. Is. PERFECT.

What stops this game from floundering in as many directions as there are characters, if not more? Is bringing in the focus something the GM does? Something the players have to take care of?

Your suggestions are the answer. There will be specific advice on how to guide players in creating goals if they need help, and how to weave disparate goals together as you go, but I think once the game gets rocking, setting goals that feed upon each other and support each other will begin to come naturally.

Falling Actions? What the hell? In game which is supposed to be about moving towards the Endgame, you introduce a way to go away from it? Whyyy?

I'm very, very glad you asked this question. Not because I expected it, but because I didn't. I do know the answer already, though. The intention is that the interplay of Rising and Falling Actions will act as a pacing mechanic. If the group wants to slow things down, they'll introduce some Falling Actions. If they want to explore a whole side-plot, they can do so, without having to worry that their accomplishments will suddenly spring Endgame on them before they're ready. If your group is keen on getting to Endgame, they're going to set a lot of Rising Actions, and get there fast. If they're wanting a more meandering story, with lots of expository sidetracks, then they'll Introduce more Falling Actions. I think most groups will fall somewhere in between, with a decided bias toward Rising Actions, with just enough Falling Actions to keep it from ending before they're done with the arc.

Regarding connection between characters, I think this format may have a bit to do with it. My previous effort suffered from the same thing, although a couple of the players aimed their Foundational Goals almost directly at other player characters. In a face to face game, or even a semi-real time online game setup, there would be more cross-talk, and I think the connections would be stronger.

Also, this?

maybe allow one foundational goal be created by another player, as a "I'd like you to move in this general direction" thing?

An amazing idea. I don't think I'll make it the rule, but I'll definitely put it in as an option to play with. Maybe 20-40% of your Foundational Goals are made by/with another player as an option.

Tel/Jay,

Endgame doesn't advocate that the Goal be accomplished. It only requires that it be addressed and resolved. Basically, at the beginning of the game, one or more player thinks that it would be cool for this to happen by the end of the arc. By the end of the arc, it will have happened, failed to happen, or some sort of compromised situation will have occurred. Maybe the orcish empire will be on the brink of happening, but the popular leader will see that all that lies in store for him is bloodshed, and turn away, striking some sort of accord with the powers that be (a la Dune). All that Endgame requires is that, once it's done, we know what happens.

retrieving a stolen cart with 8 barrels of his best mead that was taken by an orcish band

That, right there, would have been a text-book PERFECT Foundational Goal.

Ahldam's overt starting role as antagonistic to the Endgame Goal is exactly the sort of thing that this exercise was for. Prior to this, I'd have assumed that all of the PCs would end up working toward accomplishing the Endgame Goal, directly or indirectly, willingly or unwillingly, knowingly or unknowingly. Now I see that it's not only possible for a PC to be in opposition to the Goal in the beginning, but possibly to be so for the entire game.. And this can be good, though perhaps tricky to do well.

I was stuck with the thoughts of 'AM I going to by narrating my involvement, or is a GM going to weave my player in?'

The answer is both. The players collectively have almost all the power to decide where the story goes. The GM's role isn't that of storyteller. Instead, he acts as a facilitator and author of the opposition; The players decide what happens, the GM decides what they have to overcome along the way. The basic mechanics of play are pretty traditional, but this relationship between the players, the GM and the narrative is pretty non-traditional.

Great comments. Keep 'em coming.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Lance,

Here are a couple of thoughts about what we've done. First, I think you should give some thought to "fantasy" in Mage Blade. The fact that the world's most bog-standard D&D LARP dwarf made it through the process gives me pause, at least. I'm not expecting some kind of ultra-original freaky setting, but some kind of grounding or basic original statement that lets me know I'm not in a setting which is itself a second-order derivation of what's an imitation in the first place. This isn't about the names, either - keep what you have if you like it. I'm talking about what an "orc" is or what a "wizard school" is.

Second, one of the most important features of character creation is learning what can change about what I'm putting on the sheet. Without that, I have to fall back on the old-school standard assumption that the person running the game will "try to kill my guy" and I need to strategize his creation in such a way as to make it as unlikely as possible. This entire context for play is pretty broken and I think it's important to show why it doesn't apply in this game. Again, the solution is very easy, merely by explaining reward mechanics and pointing out their start-up features on the beginning sheet.

Third, I think that the term "endgame" is vague, and open to all manner of hasty interpretations especially by gamers, especially when considering settings of this sort. I rather liked the one we settled on, because the only thing that is truly fixed is that there is an orcish empire whose rule is open to question. I presume that our characters will end up having a shot at doing it, and that we as players commit at least to the possibility that they (our characters) might try. That's all. It doesn't dictate that the empire will end up being ruled at all, nor that said ruler would be one of us, nor anything else. Most especially, it doesn't mean that every one of our characters' situations and every one of the prepped events of play are directed solely at that aim.

I think such concepts are useful and fun, but I also think that explaining exactly what the term means, especially regarding presumptions about future events of play, would be a really good idea.

Best, Ron

[contracycle]

I dropped in on this thread earlier but didn't have very much to offer.  To me, character creation ex nihilo like that is virtually impossible.  I would not have been able to create a character for this game until after I had read whatever there was to be read (for players) about orcs, and their empires or lack thereof.  This shouldn't be read as meaning that I would necessarily create a character aimed straight at that goal, but I would need some groundwork. 

I'm ambivalent about knowing the final outcome.  I don't think that knowing the destination would prevent me enjoying the journey, but I also have to say that I wouldn't actually bet money we'd get there.  I would also ask the following question: how long do you expect it to take?  I would be interested to see how you intend to manage the at-the-table play toward such an end.

Deciding the endgame would definitely have to precede developing a character, and probably, for me, both would also need a prior setting.  So, the process you have outlined would probably work ok if this was a game in which I was already somewhat familiar with the setting by whatever means.

[telperion]

Ron,

I'm not exactly sure how to take this : "The fact that the world's most bog-standard D&D LARP dwarf made it through the process gives me pause, at least.". But, I'm fairly confident that it was a veiled insult.  Anyway, that's the way I will digest it.

JayMc