Last ones I promise

[Brian Leybourne]

OBAM has rules for jousting actually, so you'll be able to read all about it.

Brian.

Why would Jousting Rules be included in Of Beasts and Men?  I would have thought that it would be in The Flower of Battle Combat Supplement.

Because oBaM has the animal rules, including horses and horseback combat (and barding, maneuvers, etc etc blah blah). And jousting is a natural extension from that.

Brian.

[Jake Norwood]

You're almost right.  By the time jousting reached the hieght of its pageantry, full plate had completely (or very nearly so) disappeared from the battlefield.  Thus the ONLY suits of plate being designed at that time were designed specifically for the needs of the tourney

These were indeed much heavier and designed in ways that no sane person would ever try to use on the battle field.

If there was a time where specialized tourney platemail was being designed simultaneously with widespread battle field use armor it must have been very brief.

I went and tried to get some more hard facts on this one (hard being a relative term when dealing with history). The heighth of armor-in-battle (the late 1400s to the early 1500s) was also a big time for jousting (Dr. Anglo cites 1467--a busy year for HEMA in general). I then went through several of my older armor books (still from the last 10 years, though), and found that most of the really impressive tournament armor was from 1550 or thereabouts. I believe--but don't have concrete stuff at hand--that 1550 was still a strong year for armor on the battlefield, although admittedly down from the late 1400s, we're still talking full harness.

On the other hand, Dr. Anglo cites French texts in saying that in 1446 French knights were expected to have separate equipment, including armor, "both for war and joust."

So as far as I can tell there was about 100-150 years of solid overlap, possibly much more. Looking at the whole cross-section of history this is a small slice, but then again Weyrth is set at 1467-ish earth years (that's also the year of Talhoffer's manual's third known printing, which is the prettiest IMO).

Hope that helps--and thanks for making me hit the books!

Jake

[Valamir]

Great info.  Thats largely in line with what I'd remembered...just a lot longer span of time.  I would have said no more than 10-20 years of strong overlap, but seemingly it was, in fact, not only much longer than that, but also square in the pseudo historical period of Wyeth...good stuff.

[Sneaky Git]

On the other hand, Dr. Anglo cites French texts in saying that in 1446 French knights were expected to have separate equipment, including armor, "both for war and joust."

So, from a strictly "rules lawyer" p.o.v., would it be appropriate to assume that jousting-specific armor would have a higher protective value.. at the cost of increased CP penalties?  Or is this getting a little too specific?

[Mokkurkalfe]

I would guess so, since the horrendous armor wheights(35-50 kg) one hears about from time to time refers to jousting armor.
The penalties should be very steep, since you're only supposed to sit in a saddle and aim in those things, and therefore they aren't made for anything else.

My guess(full suit):

AV: 8-10
CP: -8 or so

[Valamir]

I don't know how the jousting rules for the Beast book are written, but if I were to write a set, I'd start with a base level of dice that all jousters get just for following the rules.  i.e. you know that the opponent isn't going for your horse, you know he isn't going to dodge, you know there aren't any of his buddies backing him up, its pretty strait forward.

If I were to guestimate (not actually haveing jousted myself obviously) I'd say that at its hieght as a sport (less true of its more rough and tumble beginnings) Jousting was 1 part form, 1 part skill, 1 part nerve, and 1-2 parts equipment and horse quality.

Thus, I'd set out a combat pool something like 6-8 dice for free for all jousters just as a result of the rigid format making striking the opponent an easy task.  2-4 more for a good horse, plus dice from skill, less a horrendous penelty for the armor CP.  I'd also use the horses strength value for damage since a couched lance isn't so much wielded as braced.

What you'd wind up with is a CP for jousting of about typical RoS size, but if you took the tourney armor out of the tourney where the horrendous penelties were not offset by a bonus for format you'd be in rather dire straights.  

Further if I were to do Jousting proficiencies, about the only "techniques" I could think of would be targeting the head instead of torso (presumeably a harder attack more likely to unbalance and unseat an opponent) and perhaps a defensive proficiency geared towards keeping ones seat.  Very possibly another riding related proficiency geared towards inflicting a stronger blow by the way the knight was braced or rose up in the saddle or some such thing.

[Brian Leybourne]

I don't know how the jousting rules for the Beast book are written

Really briefly...

* There's a CP bonus depending on the quality of the mount.

* There's a ride check to control the horse and maneuver into the best charge, this is contested so the best rider gets the difference between his check and his opponents check as a CP bonus.

* Dice are split between attack and block just like a sim block/strike maneuver

* knockdown rolls are made to not be knocked from the mount, adjusted by opponents attacking successes. Damage will usually not happen because of heavy armors (but if you want to joust in light armour and risk being badly hurt, go ahead).

* whoever stays on his horse and unseats his opponent probably wins. If both are knocked off, it may fall to melee or they may joust again, depending on local region rules.

That's it really briefly and in a nutshell,
Brian.

[Sneaky Git]

Really briefly...

* There's a CP bonus depending on the quality of the mount.

* There's a ride check to control the horse and maneuver into the best charge, this is contested so the best rider gets the difference between his check and his opponents check as a CP bonus.

* Dice are split between attack and block just like a sim block/strike maneuver

* knockdown rolls are made to not be knocked from the mount, adjusted by opponents attacking successes. Damage will usually not happen because of heavy armors (but if you want to joust in light armour and risk being badly hurt, go ahead).

* whoever stays on his horse and unseats his opponent probably wins. If both are knocked off, it may fall to melee or they may joust again, depending on local region rules.

That's it really briefly and in a nutshell,
Brian.

Cool!