The Looking Glass, the Cyclone, the Wardrobe and the Second Star to the Right

[Judd]

What happens to those kids who have been to otherworlds when they grow up?

One sorcerous theory:

http://githyankidiaspora.wordpress.com/2010/03/06/the-looking-glass-the-cyclone-the-wardrobe-and-the-second-star-to-the-right/

[Ben Lehman]

Makes me think of this.

Why have a fixed demon pantheon? I thought one of the neat things about sorcerer is that demons don't exist until the Sorcerer makes them.

[Judd]

Makes me think of this.

Why have a fixed demon pantheon? I thought one of the neat things about sorcerer is that demons don't exist until the Sorcerer makes them.

The fixed pantheon might be a darling I have to kill.  We'll see.

I had this idea about a fixed pantheon of demons based on a deck of playing cards.  I tried to shoehorn it into this setting because of the Wonderland angle.

[greyorm]

While "make up your own demon" is kind of cool, having to summon demons from a set pantheon (and yet not knowing exactly what you're going to get) is also pretty spiffy. I still want to get back to my group's Sorcerer game sometime, or start a new one, where we were using the daemons of the Goetia ala Solomon's various Keys as the things that could be summoned. The restriction is liberating.

[The Dragon Master]

And of course, the fixed pantheon doesn't mean the demons abilities are known. Sure you know you're summoning the White Rabbit, and that he is a guardian of travellers, but that doesn' t mean that you know HOW he guards them. It doesn't necessarily mean he has the Travel ability, or that he has any kind of Boost ability, just that he uses whatever powers he has to Guard them. As for why he does so? What his need is? What he desires? These are still open questions, or at least are area's where the characters knowledge isn't guaranteed to be accurate.

[Ron Edwards]

Hey guys,

For what it's worth, my take is that a "fixed pantheon" (whatever that might specifically mean, I smell reader-interpretation going on) is perfectly fine in Sorcerer.

That doesn't mean they actually exist. It does mean you have one of them. Same as playing Sorcerer any other way.

I strongly advise against interpreting these concepts as, "In Sorcerer, you conjure up the demon out of nothing as an act of will." That is as fixed an ideological-metaphysical statement as saying "In this setting, there are demons, and their names are A, B, and C."

All interpretations of sorcery, in Sorcerer, are speculative, and that's a hard limit. Lore is the extent to which your character's notions about this (regardless of whether they conform or defy in-setting bodies of teaching/reading) apparently work. Saying "fixed pantheon" only means such an in-setting body of teaching and reading is available.

Best, Ron

[The Dragon Master]

Now that you say that it occurs to me that "Fixed Pantheon" would make a kickass Lore Description. :-)

[Judd]

In  my head, when I picture playing in the above setting, I picture the demons all statted out before-hand.  The player will know what they are getting either through knowledge gained through play or based on how their Contact roll went.

Ron,

Maybe it is deserving of its own thread but whenever you say, "demons don't exist in sorcerer," I really do not understand what you are saying.

Judd

[Ron Edwards]

i]thinks there are no demons, but there really are, and so my guy Knows Better and they're all stupid." This is basically White-Wolf-think and reinforces a wide set of adolescent power issues (and nothing else).

There's another, similar misconception the mind can slip to when the first misunderstanding gets challenged. This is what I alluded to in the previous post: "In this setting, there are no demons, but my guy is so mentally powerful and special that he makes<No, it does not. What he actually did, was fuck with reality. The fact that it looks<does<Exactly<certainty<how the sorcerer came by his or her ritual activities, but not whatare, and so my guy Knows Better and they're all stupid." This is basically White-Wolf-think and reinforces a wide set of adolescent power issues (and nothing else).

There's another, similar misconception the mind can slip to when the first misunderstanding gets challenged. This is what I alluded to in the previous post: "In this setting, there are no demons, but my guy is so mentally powerful and special that he makes<No, it does not. What he actually did, was fuck with reality. The fact that it looks<does<Exactly<certainty<how the sorcerer came by his or her ritual activities, but not what

[Judd]

So, the easiest way for me to think of this is to just concentrate on the sorcerer.  The sorcerer is a cosmic outlaw and is breaking the rules of reality by bringing in entities that should not exist but now do thanks to their power of will.

What everyone else believes in doesn't change that.

This doesn't mean that demons are figments of the Sorcerer's imagination or anything else.  Once they are brought into existence, they exist but they shouldn't and there's the rub.

Yes?

[Ron Edwards]

Yes indeed.

Also, divorce time from the equation as well. If the demon has a history, a back-story, hell, a whole cosmology and chronology associated with it, doesn't make a difference to this fundamental point.

Best, Ron

[Judd]

Now that we've defined the sorcerer's reality...

P.S. Oh yeah. You can number-up the demons all you want to beforehand, and even that won't change what I'm talking about. That's real-world author-type non-in-game prep, that's all. Doesn't mean a thing regarding the in-fiction content. Also, don't forget the alterations to demons based on the players' rolls, which I strongly recommend implementing.

This is interesting and inspired by an e-mail from Chris, I am thinking that this means that if a player fails a summon roll, it could mean that rather than summon the wrong demon or not summon the demon at all, they summon a powerful demon who has been scarred or wounded or a lowly demon who has risen in power above his station without the sorcerer's knowledge but will likely play dumb for a while to lull the sorcerer into a false sense of security.

Basically, failure could mean that the player isn't quite getting what they asked for but they are getting something based on the established demons, only something has happened to them.

[Ron Edwards]

Sure, that's fine.

Also, I was looking over your prior post, and there is one small thing to amend: from "What everyone else believes in doesn't change that," I'd say instead:

What anyone believes in doesn't change that, sorcerer included.

Best, Ron