[ BD&D ] Half done Social System

[Daniel B]

The BD&D stands for "Bastardized D&D" because I'm changing the base system of D&D v3.5 to experiment with some ideas. In this version, I want a much deeper Social system. The following skills don't exist: Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Gather Information, and Sense Motive.

I'm running out of time for the Social System since I plan to use it in a game I've got coming up, the first weekend of April. I think what I've got so far could be turned into a workable system but at the moment it's just a set of ideas. I'm posting it's half-done version for more thoughts. The system stems from a topic from way back when: The Social Domain - why's it so tough to design?

Mechanically it's extremely simple when compared to combat, but as a designer, it's rather counter-intuitive because I'm trying to make the system lie "on top" of real play, instead of the other way. By this, I mean that players ought to be able to just talk as normal with the system simply nudging them, instead of the system defining any and every possible action the players can take.

PLEASE NOTE: It's a half-formed system. I threw a couple of different chunks together to post it online, but I'm not sure if they are consistent. (I'm hoping y'all will get the idea though.)



System Elements -

Impact – Impact is how heavily you affect other people based on pure impression alone. This can be due to appearance and mannerisms, but it represents something more primal. Across cliques, cultures and species, the effect of Impact becomes more unpredictable. It is typically used only once for any new person you meet, during the First Impression Reaction Check (with exceptions being if, for example, the person loses their memory or you are disguised well.)

Strengths – An aspect of the character that can be used to obtain his desired result in a social encounter. Some strengths are active, meaning the character must make use of it to cause an influence; e.g. persuasion. Other strengths are passive and the player must take steps to avoid having them cause an influence. A player can choose anything to be a social strength. "Witty smile" might be an active strength, while "Big bloody axe" might be a passive strength. These can have any positive value, but they get more expensive the higher the value, so I'm thinking typically +1..+3 is reasonable. By expensive, I'm referring to a new character currency I'm using in other parts of the system. Sway will also cost currency, but much more so. In all cases, an opposing character can make a reaction check to ignore that Strength for the duration of the conversation (though they can't do this with "Sway").

Sway –  Sway indicates your ability to move people over to your point of view. Unlike impact, which loses power over time, Sway becomes more powerful the longer people interact, and can work across species and cultures.

Vulnerabilities – A social vulnerability is anything that an opposing character can take advantage of. Vulnerabilities aren't necessarily weaknesses. They can include any needs (e.g. food, air), wants, genuine limitations, or even personality traits of the "victim". For example: thirst, lust, blindness, and fear of snakes are all vulnerabilities. So too are any beliefs, opinions, and knowledges (or lack thereof) of the victim.

Charisma Modifier and Hidden Depths of Character – The Charisma modifier is split up into two pools: Impact and Sway. All characters can only use a maximum modifier of +10 for Sway, with the remainder going into Impact. The division will occur for monsters and NPCs too, and may be different from monster to monster even within the same species. For example, a Beholder (Monsters Manual) has a natural Cha mod of +2. Any particular Beholder may have the modifier split up as:
•   Impact (-1)          Sway (+3)
•   Impact (+0)          Sway (+2)
•   Impact (+1)          Sway (+1)
•   Impact (+2)          Sway (+0)
•   Impact (+3)          Sway (-1)
•   Impact (+4)          Sway (-2)
•   etc.
All characters cannot go below the minimums of: Impact (-4), Sway (-4), and Impact+Sway (-4). Anything less and the character becomes catatonic per the normal rules of Ability Damage. If your character suffers Ability Damage to Charisma, you choose which pool it affects. Incidentally, the Cha modifier is used as normal for other areas of the game (e.g. Sorcerer)



The General Idea -

The system is invoked when at least one chatter has a motive beyond simply communicating. It may be as simple as "make friends with the bartender" or as tricky as "converse with the Queen about the state of the Knighthood while subtly flirting with her Aide." Motivated conversation is preceded, bounded, and divvied up by Reaction Checks.

Reaction Checks influence the conversation in the following ways:

• First Impression - this check can be made well before conversation even begins, to see what a character thinks of another. This check has a significant effect on all future Evaluation checks
• Evaluation - to consider what the other character has said so far
• Sense Motive - to see if there's something more in another character's words than what he's saying

A successful roll means another character has made a good impression on you or, in the context of "Sense Motive", you detect the weight in his words.

The First Impression check sets the initial Reaction DC, which is used for all future Evaluation Checks for that conversation. It is not rerolled unless something very significant changes in the Context or Circumstances; e.g. "Wait a minute .. Bob? Is that you under that garbage heap?"

Between Evaluation Checks in a conversation, the players chat with each other in character and toss around tokens representing swaying attempts in an amount up to their character's natural sway (defined below) as well as social Strengths.

The players are trying to reach a careful balance: that the other player has no more than (First Impression success/failure) tokens. If that player does, they may opt-out during the next Reaction Check due to appropriate reasons. For example, a beautiful woman trying to get assistance from a shy geek may fail if she lays it on too thick, and scares the fellow. Luckily, a player isn't required to pass over tokens for every comment they make. Conversely, by not passing over tokens, the other player may turn it around and start getting their own way.

The margin of success, namely (First Impression success/failure), can be expanded by Vulnerabilities if a player brings up a Vulnerability and makes it applicable during their last comment. (The GM may veto this if it was a stretch. "I think it would be in your best interests to withdraw your armies from the Benzark borders .. OOOH SNAKES!!")

Both players can also opt-out of a Reaction Check if they reach a compromise.




Daniel

[Locke]

You might not get a lot of feedback as there have been a lot of DnD stuff done here and or suggested.  Not to mention much more DnD stuff done outside this forum from 1st edition to 3.5.

I would suggest reducing everything where you can.  Splitting attributes in a DnD style system might be better done through a feat that gives a mod to something else.  Also I would make this a mod to DnD 3.5 instead of trying to make a new game as it seems that you are focusing on just a few aspects of the game from what i read.

Hope this helps!

[Necromantis]

Seems like a good start.
Seems fairly involved though, Have you explained the idea to your playing group and gotten feedback from them?
I am new to game design and someone here suggested that and I felt a fool for not having thought of the benefits of a full on
conversation about my ideas and theirs  instead of "hey, I am working on a new system, its like this." and recieving a "sounds cool" and moving on.
My players were very helpful.

I think at the very least you should Make sure that everyone understands the social system before actual gameplay.
Maybe some test runs during the night everyone rolls their characters? this is the extent of my helpfulness - obvious things. haha.

As for mechanics I am no help as I am wedged deeply in noobie designerland.. Others on here are great though.

Good luck .

Necromantis.

[Daniel B]

@ Locke
Yes actually, I can see how this wouldn't be a great place for D&D changes X-)  Ah well. The reason it's a D&Dv3.5 mod instead of an outright new game is that I don't have that system fully designed yet, but it's gotten close enough to turn into a mod. (Except that damned social system!) That, and, my buddies really wanted to "just play", and 3.5 is the only thing we all know strongly enough to do that.

@ Necro
Unfortunately I don't have time for testing. I'll have to just throw it in there and hope it doesn't crash and burn. Also, I think being "wedged deeply in noobie designerland" can be as much a benefit at this stage of the industry's life. As old as it is, I believe there's still a lot of room expanding the boundaries.

[Finarvyn]

I think that this seems to be a system with some wonderful ideas, but probably not a good fit for the game you suggest.

General thoughts:

1. This sounds more like the basis of its own game rather than an appendage stapled to another game system.

2. I think that it would require an extensive playtest in order to see how it works for sure, but it does seem quite involved and complex in its own right. You have a couple of issues to overcome here: can you explain it to your players, and can someone who doesn't know you explain it to their players. The problem with many intricate game systems is that if you play it it's fine, but it's hell to explain and so anyone trying to learn it on its own really has a tough time making it make sense. I had to re-read your post a couple of times before I had some general comfort, and even then I can't be certain that what you describe is what I see in my mind.

3. As Vladius suggested, D&D might not be the best fit for this.

[Luminous]

You should research the Diplomacy system used by the Vanguard: Saga of Heroes mmo.  It was really well done and something I wouldn't mind seeing imitated in other mmo's and rpg systems.  Part of what you have here already reminds me of that system.