Flails and parry

[Jaif]

I was looking through the weapon stats, and noticing that flails ignore 2 shield block successes.  Sounds good, but what if I parry?  It seems to me that parrying a flail would be even harder (and more dangerous) then blocking one.

-Jeff

[Lyrax]

That depends on your CP.  If you have a CP of 4, then you're better off parrying (assuming a dtn of 7 for parry and 5 for shield), because you'll only get about 2 shield successes, but should get at least 1 parrying success.  OTOH, if you have a CP of 20 (which is just crazy!), then you're better off blocking with a shield, because you should get about 12 shield successes, but only 8 parrying successes (roughly).

[Jaif]

I get the math - I was talking about realism.  I think that if anything, a flail should ignore more parry successes than shield successes.

-Jeff

[Lyrax]

I can see why it wouldn't.  Parrying is extremely active, while blocking is very passive.  The flail wraps around a passive shield, but can't stand being thrown to one side by a sword.  Will a sword vs. sword parry be different from a sword vs. flail parry?  You betcha.  The problem is that a shield really has only one action (be in front of the enemy weapon).  The sword can perform many defensive actions, some more active than others.  The solution is to pretend that parries can be done equally well against all weapons, but shields cannot.  Are the parries effective?  Yes.  Would I parry a sword the same as I parry a flail?  I don't think so!

[Jake Norwood]

This is a pretty good question, actually. I think that it would be more difficult to cleanly parry a flail with a sword...but then again I'd never even try, deciding to take evasions instead. A shield, though, can be used quite actively by using the edge and what-not...

So in short, good question. The thing is that parrying a flail would keep the weapon from hitting you, but it would tie up your weapon or in some other way cause problems. The fact is I'd be wary of making judgements without (a) more research and/or (b) actually working with a flail.

But I think Jeff might have something.

Jake

[Lance D. Allen]

A pity the SCA doesn't allow any weapon which utilizes a cord or chain. As it stands, I'll never be able to contribute any hard data to this topic.

On the other hand, the reason that the SCA prohibits the flail and similar weapons speaks eloquently. It's a dangerous weapon; A very, very dangerous weapon.

[Mike Holmes]

This is a pretty good question, actually. I think that it would be more difficult to cleanly parry a flail with a sword...but then again I'd never even try, deciding to take evasions instead. A shield, though, can be used quite actively by using the edge and what-not...

So in short, good question. The thing is that parrying a flail would keep the weapon from hitting you, but it would tie up your weapon or in some other way cause problems. The fact is I'd be wary of making judgements without (a) more research and/or (b) actually working with a flail.

But I think Jeff might have something.

Jake

I think he's on to somehting as well, and I think you just accidentally came up with the solution, Jake. How about with a parry against a flail, if the parrying character succeeds by three or more, that both characters lose the use of the weapon as the weapons get tied up (sort of a very nasty bind). This is cool because it means that the player may try to go for an exactly equal parry (or somthing close) to keep his weapon free. Or he may go big, and hope to disable the flail completely. In any case this condition should remain until someone takes the time to make a Terrain roll to free the flail and parrying weapon. Or the characters can do contests of strength to rip their weapons from each other.

To make it dangerous to parry, roll a number of dice equal to the successes rolled by the flail anyhow against a ATN of 11 (with an effective strength of 0) to see if the flail clips the parrying character in addition to getting tangled. So, if I roll 4 successes, and you roll 5, you parry, but I get to roll 4 dice against the 11 ATN to see if some residual damage gets through as the head spins about the parrying weapon.

Jst some ideas.

Mike

[Durgil]

... It's a dangerous weapon; A very, very dangerous weapon.

Dangerous for both parties.  Iwould think that it would be a difficult weapon to master, and that the chance of a mishap would always be present no matter how proficient you get at it.  That fact could be used to offset its huge potential offensive capibilities.

[Thorbrin]

I am a member of a small but fun group dedicated to the martial arts of the medieval age.
Our group called "Blades of Glory" travels all over Ontario, Canada . We do a show that uses live steel weapons(blunted obveously). The fighting style that we use is basicly SCA combat. We use a point system , each blow to the head,torso, leg above the knee and arm abobove the elbow earns u a point. The match is timed (3 minutes-the length of the song playing) and the one with the most points at the end of the match advances to the next round.
We use a variety of weapons: Long Sword/ shield
                                            Short Sword/shield
                                            Hand Axe/ shield
                                            Flail/shield(note flail has a wooden ball!)
                                            Two handed Sword
                                            Parrying Dagger and Sword( or axe,flail)
                                            and Two weapon 2 swords, sword and axe etc.
Personally I have been involved with countless battles against all of these fighting styles. The flail is a very high impact weapon that requires constant practice. Its reach and ability to bypass a shield make it a deadly weapon . It is possible to parry a flail with a sword but it is very difficult, I have found that if u use the flat of the weapon to deflect the ball u have a better chance of avoiding a hit. Another option for using a sword against a flail is to aggresivlly attack the chain of the flail as it arcs towards you. A shield is definitely a better tool for parrying any weapon , especially the flail its larger flat surface is very useful for deflecting the ball, though I must say recently we started using 2 and 3 headed flails and it is so much harder to parry these.
I have not had the chance to pick up the Riddle of Steel game yet but as soon as it is available up here its mine.
Good luck and good gaming.