When the GM says "Better Watch Out..." (UPDATE)

[Jack Spencer Jr]

Those who were kind enough to comment on my self-serving and grammarically challenged venting thread When the GM say "Better Watch Out..." I have a slight update.  This will end, end soon and probably end badly.

Here's the deal. My friend's D&D3e game is winding down and before he runs his homebrewed/Ironwood game he wanted someone else to run  something so he could play for a bit before GMing again. I could've run something, but I'll cover that later. So his girlfriend will be running her game.

Great googie mooglie.

Now, to be fair, it has been a while since I've played in her game. Last time was....jesus! eight years ago (I feel fucking old now) back when she was still stuck on first edition AD&D and refused to use point-based RPG character creation because, well, she'd never used it. She's changed on that point, and a few others since then, but I don't think that everything is all that changed.

Last night, we rolled up characters. For whatever reason she's decided to use my friend's homebrew which could be a bad thing. I get the feeling that the game is in a constant state of flux, career skill packages have been redone a few times the current printout is incorrect, etc. For those of you who find GURP to light on the math, I present you with this game, an accountant's dream or nightmare depending on how much you like your job.

Most of my complaints in the original post about this game remain and, maybe, get jacked up a bit. The bloody thing has 5-6 page character sheet (hard to tell exactly that's how organized it is) This character sheet is mostly her design, but my problem with it is that it's largely redundant. You have one sheet listing your character's perks & flaws and you list the points you spend/gain on this page. On another page you list your perks & flaws again but this time the rank at which it is at. And I'm pretty sure that they go on another page somewhere for some reason, too. Oy vey and stuff!

That's about all I can tell you about the system itself because I cheated. A few weeks ago, when several other players couldn't make it to the game we test-drove this game using pre-generated characters. I said I wanted to use the pre-gen character. I am a sneaky bastard like that. Just as well. How it work, you get 40 points to spend and you can take up to 40 points in flaws for a total of 80 points. And they were like, take forty points worth of flaws and my mind was literally smoking looking at the flaw list because I really didn't want to take any of them. Didn't care if I got any perks, either. At least I really didn't feel like choosing any. This is one of the flaws of point based character generation. You can indeed build whatever character you want, but unless you know what to build, it's kind of pointless and frustrating. "Hey, that's a nice skyscraper. But you were supposed to build a bridge."

We arrived at 7 PM and we worked on this until 11 PM and she said we have another session yet to finish up and an introduction thing. Gad. It's like an awards show. Two weeks worth of playing time shot to hell because of preparation. A decnt chunk of that time was spend using Task Force Games's Central Casting, an RPG product who's novelty has long since worn off on me since most of the stuff we get from it never makes it into an actual play session. Sometimes, yeah, but more often than not, nope. never.

But this is all crap I've said before. What got me is something she said at the end of the evening. A lengthy, improvised speech about what to expect from her as a GM:

[*] She's the sort of GM who if you don't have it written down you don't have it. If you don't say it you don't do it.

This basically boils down mind reading. I recall from our first session eight years ago, the game started with the party being sent out on some kind of mission for...something. After playing with my friend as GM for so long, someone else's GMing style can be a shock. We left...wherever we were and she goes "six moths later you've traveled X miles..." This threw us all for a loop, but it was just different. However later that same evening she goes, "OK you've been traveling for a couple hours now and you're starting to get really hungry." You see, we didn't say we were taking breaks for eating so therefore we didn't do it. I don't know about you guys but I detest this sort of micromanagement-style play. It gets sillier. We later find an abbandoned wagon but we didn't notice the rotting fish secreted in a "secret compartment." I mean, it was several pounds of dried fish going bad but because we didn't say "do we smell anything?" we didn't smell it.

[*] you are going to do more roleplaying in this campaign.

Read: there won't be quite as much combat. Roleplaying may or may not occur. I recall a good deal of time spent searching the wagon above, lots of time wasted on that. We could have searched and found everything much faster if it was us searching a real wagon in real life. It may be just my perspective, I seem to remember that pretty much every character we met were airheads, so that's how I think she played them. Hopefully this part has changed in the last decade.

My wife also recalls spending at least one or more sessions sitting out of the game because she got possessed by the ghosts of the people from that wagon and they pretty much took her out of the game, and then when we got to a heal temple, she spend that whole session in "therapy."  Key- rist!

[*] I will not tolerate in-fighting or kibitzing or...in-fighting...

WTF! First of all, we have a first two rules of Fight Club thing going on here. I'm not sure what she means by in-fighting. I haven't notice this group fighting over stuff and even her boyfriend had to ask what the hell she meant by kibitzing. She explained but I'm still not sure.

[/list:u]
The whole thing is giving me a headache and I'm not looking forward to having to make up a new character for my friends campaign because I probably can't cheat with the pre-generated character for that. Phoo.

I would simply leave this game. Not playing at all is starting to have its appeal, but these people are friends and I don't think I want to just sever the relationship like that. I mean, we went on a double date on Thursday night, my friend and his girlfriend (the rest of the group has no social life, it seems, so they're disposible IMO). So if I do leave, it will have to be gently, somehow, since I don't want to damage the relationship. It's made even more complicated since my wife goes as well and she's not on the same page as I am about this. Not gaming isn't appealing to her... yet.

But, I'm not going to bother trying to get these guys to try something I'd be happier with. It goes like this, and it confirms what I had already known.

Before going out, we met at the LGS. They had Sorcerer's Soul, which I picked up. Unfortunately, my friend saw it. "What's that? I've never heard of it. What is it?"

Cripes.

I really didn't know what to say, or how to explain it. He's got a history of making snap judgements about things like this and shit. He bought the Theatrix Ironwood suppliment for the source material, but considers the game poop. After I notice this feature of his personality, I stopped telling him about stuff I had found because I didn't need to hear him put it down.

So he asks about Sorcerer again over dinner. I tried to describe the whole sorcerer/demon relationship thing but I didn't think of a perfect example: Little Shop of Horrors, until the next day. But what I did say was, remember that GNS thing? It's by the guy who wrote that.

Actually, I had given him several printouts of RPG stuff from the net, including the Interactive Toolkit so I'm not sure what he was really to or in which article these comments were from, but anyway...

He said ROn had some good points but he had a couple problems:

* That [he] seemed to think that [he] thought his style of playing is superior or something. This is an old GNS arguement, so to hell with it.

* Some kind of comment on the combat mechanics found in other games, to which my friend said "well duh, because combat isn't like other actions." My friend then displayed some deep-seeded syndochey by saying that detailed combat systems are what gamers want and then noting that Diablo has sold better than James Pond.

Now, the James Pond/Diablo thing is just stupid. James pond is probably less Narrativist than Diablo so that's no comparason.

The entire time I was thinking inside "I really don't care for detailed combat systems." but I said nothing. Chalk it up to cowardice. But I think it's clear that he is not open to the idea of such games. Oh he might let me run it if I offer, but that'd be like Jesse's story of the Everyway player who played just to "prove" how "broken" Everway is.

So thanks for listening. Sorry about venting again but I'm just frustrated beyond recognition about this.

[greyorm]

Find...a...new...group.

Honestly.  This isn't good.  And if you and your wife want to play, you need to, but in a different group.

This is like playing on the softball team when you can't stand softball, or going to a friend's house for Monday Night Football and being frustrated that you have to engage in sports-team conversation/arguments and cheering even though you don't follow and barely like football.

Saying, "I'm really not happy with our group's style of play, and I'm just not enjoying myself," is not the end of the world.  If you are good friends, you can still do stuff together, just not gaming.  Go to a movie, play poker, join the softball team together or the bowling league, etc.

[Michael S. Miller]

It seems you have 3 options: Leave the group, stay with the group and suffer, or *show* the group how you want to play and see if they're willing to accomodate.  Greyorn covered the first option. Your post chronicled your struggle with the second. I'll take a stab at the third.

Your descriptions of "Ted" convey someone to whom actions speak louder than words. You said he used to shoot his mouth off about Magic until he tried it. So, I suggest you run Sorcerer for him. Or, as he's fond of detailed combat systems, The Riddle of Steel. Don't give him too much of a pregame pitch. Don't mention GNS. Just say something along the lines of "I'd like my shot at the GM's chair for a few sessions. I'd like to run something a little different. If you don't like it, it's just a few weeks."

I got in a similar situation. My wife and I have gamer friends that we hadn't gamed with for a while. We managed to schedule a time and my wife suggested I run Sorcerer. Well, with no prep time (she made this suggestion only a few hours before we were to start), I launched right into Sorcerer character creation and, when that was done, pulled a few hours of Actual Play out of thin air to get us started. The reception was mixed.

I had been reluctant to run Sorcerer for them (and for my wife) both because the game has bite while they have a tendency to go off on pun and gossip tangents AND that they're fairly heavily into White Wolf (where Humanity means something completely different). Well, last night was the second session--the one I had done some (but not enough) prep for. We gamed for just shy of four solid hours! They didn't want to stop. They even marveled at the fact that there had been no tangents. ("It's the intense roleplaying game" quoth I) I swear, the game is magic!

My point is, I didn't expect this reception and I would never have known if I hadn't SHOWN them the game. Simply put: do it.

Worse case scenario is they hate it so much that they boot you out of the group, right? Doesn't that solve your problem, too? 8-)

Good Luck

[Jack Spencer Jr]

Hi, Michael

You're right of course. I should quit bitchin' and just take action. I'll try not to gripe about this anymore, on the Forge at any rate, until the situation at least changes. I had thought twice about posting this in the first place, but I thought that there might be some useful tidbits in an actual play sort of way to someone able to cut through the crap. (BTW thanks for reading up on my problems with "Ted" That makes me feel kinda special and stuff)

In any case if I do attempt to run something like you suggest, It'll probably not be Sorcerer. THe last thing I tried to show Ted was kill puppies for satan. I figured he'd get a kick out of reading it since it is pretty darn funny, but I'm not sure if he had read it at this point since last time I mentioned it he had some kind of attitude and said something about how he doesn't like the players playing evil characters. He kind of said in with a similar tone as "I know you think you're in love but thirty year old men should not be having sex with sixteen year old girls." If you get my meaning.

When I told him Sorcerer was about bound demons and such he seemed to take a similar attitude. I'm not sure if there's something to this or if he's just worried I've become a Satanist or what. I have noticed Wicca books around his house, but I think his g/f brought those when she moved in. What I mean here is that I get the feeling Sorcerer already has a strike against it in his mind, not unlike Titanic which he decided he hated because it was so popular, you see. (He still has a copy of it I loaned him but he still hasn't watched it yet. It's been over a year, maybe longer)

So I don't know what to try, if I do try anything. No offense to RoS but I'm not interested in buying any more RPG books even if it would be perfect. I've since decided that I have too many unused RPG books. I just got Sorcerer's Soul to round out the trilogy.

I any case, I've burdened you guys with this long enough.

[greyorm]

Been thinking about this over the weekend: there's another option.

If you, and the other players, find the GMing style so frustrating, you ALL need to take a stand on it.  Sit down and talk with the other players, let them know that you feel the same way and you think everyone should speak up next time a dislikable ruling or GMing behvaior pops up.

Then do it.  Either your GM will quit (in which case you are lucky, you don't want such a person GMing anyways), keep doing things the way they are (at which point it's time to talk to them again, and form a solid front with the other players...after all, it isn't the GMs game, it's the players), or change their style to accomodate the way your group enjoys playing.

[Jack Spencer Jr]

Hi, Raven (ir is Raven, right? The art guy?)

Funny you should mention talking to the other players. We game at the GM's house and since I'm the only other person with a car, we wind up taking people home. On the drive home I mention this or that and I've sounded out the other people a bit.

First off, I'm of the opinion that these guys are real sheep. "Ted" has a fairly forceful personality. Hell, for a while there I was a freakin' sheep. This is probably the root on most of my problems with the guy. Most of them are perfectly happy to leave things as they are. They might have one or two complaints, like my rant of the way magic works in "Ted's" homebrewed system, but just because they find it cumbersome doesn't mean they won't use it anyway.

One guy is one of these rules memorizers. He memorizes the rulebook not so much to gain an advantage but because he can and it is useful not to have to look things up like that. I had shown him my game The Wheel at one point. His comment was "I'd be interesting to see if it works." I've sounded this guy out the least because he'll often spend the night and get a ride home the next day.

Another guy is only 16, 17 years old, so he's got all of that going on. He's also got home issues. Sometimes we drop him off at his mom's house, other times his dad's. I'm getting the vibe that neither is a very happy home life for him. He's just too young and riddled with too many personal problems to take a stand, either with me or "Ted."

The third guy lives in a group home for people with mental problems. He's usually a Gloomy Gus but lately his meds have been really fucking him up. Bad.

Which leave my wife. I love her and all, but she's just not so much into the lunatic fringe of RPGs like I am :) She usually just takes a fighter type with the main strategy of just hitting people and things until they fall down and don't get up anymore. Like many gamers I've met, she claims to like the storytelling found in most RPGs but doesn't really want to have a hand in making it beyond rolling dice & stuff (for the most part. It's never that simple)

One thing I'm slowly begining to realize just now as I write this is that it's not Ted that's the problem, but me. I have a problem with Ted. As a former sheep (Ted is very good at arguing intelligently. It makes him appear smarter and, thus, people who wish to be smarter *waves hand* tend to follow him and take what he says and stuff at face value) I just don't know where to start to confront the guy. I'm also not so sure that confronting him will solve anything.  WHat I wish he would do is email me his game rules so I could critique them, but he hasn't sent them and I asked for them like three months ago. I dunno. It seems cowardly to me, but it'd be easier to discuss things of this nature with him in email. It'd give me enough time to think about my answers, which I just can't seem to do in real life with him.

So, anyway, thanks for thinking of me and stuff. Don't worry about me. I figure something out.

[greyorm]

Yep, Raven, "the art guy." <grin>

easier to discuss...in email. It'd give me enough time to think about my answers, which I just can't seem to do in real life with him

Then you are in the same boat with a lot of people, including me.
I know it's a little...odd, but ever think of writing a letter to him about it?  That would give you the time to think things through and how you want to phrase things.

Anyways, I realize due your explanation what a hard place you're stuck in and I do hope you work it out.

[Jack Spencer Jr]

(BREAKING NEWS BULLETIN: )

Since some people have been following this, I have two semi-updates on this topic.

The first is an old play, we'll call him Lou, is moving back to town. This is kind of weird. Seven years ago the group was me, my wife-then-girlfriend, Lou and Ted as the GM. One day Lou suddenly announces that he's moving to California. Just like that. It would be surprising but this was typical behavior on Lou's part. "That's Lou," Ted said. In any case, Lou had been doing well out in the Golden State. His girlfriend from around here followed him out there and they're married now and stuff. She's been homesick and missing her family so now he's packing up and moving back. "That's Lou."

In any case, there's a chance he might join the game again. I'm not so sure that's a hot idea. I recall he was something of a disruption. Not that Ted couldn't handle him, but the fact was Ted had to handle him. According to Ted, Lou grew up without a father and as such has zero respect for authority. What little respect for authority he does have he probably learned from sources like Ted later in life. It's been seven years, but I recall some rules lawyering and killer player mentality.

However, it has been seven years, so the man may have changed. ALthough I get the feeling from Ted that Lou hasn't gamed much if at all in those seven years.

And there's a little wrinkle in the whole Lou thing. How to put this delicately without this turning into "Oprah?" In college, my wife was in a rather abusive relationship. One day she took a bunch of pills and Lou happened to be answer his phone when she called. So the wife is convinced that Lou is "a real good friend." Rose colored glasses, if you get my meaning. So she's all excited about seeing the guy again.

Me? I don't dislike Lou but at the same time after seven years I have nothing to say to the guy either. We're just two people with nothing in common at all except for the game.

But I shouldn't speak too soon. Ted may not let Lou in since he's not such how Lou has changed and/or how he'll fit into this group at all. We'll have to see about this.

The other bulletin is that last night, after the game, the wife & I were driving home and she pointed out that all I was doing was bitching about the game. That all I do is sit there and mope and then bitch about it afterwards. And especially bitching about the upcoming game to be run by Ted's girlfriend.

This gave me pause. In spite of all of the advice I've gotten here and stuff, I hadn't seriously considered quitting the game until she said that. I mean, seriously. This worries me a bit since if I follow my usual behavior pattern on this, i'll just not show up one week. That's how I quit going to church. I would hope that I'd matured a bit more in the last couple years and could be a little more up front about such things.

Ted had offered to let me run Sorcerer (I guess he's been spoiling to Play, not GM, lately. He even tried to get the wife to run Rolemaster even though she'd all but sworn that crappy game off. The one and only time she'd run it, she'd gotten such a headache it wasn't funny) Maybe I'll try it after all. If it works it works. If not, I'll just find a new group, I guess. We'll see.

[Christopher Kubasik]

Jack,

Here's my take:

I've acted in a lot of theater in Chicago and L.A.

Small theaters, and such.

About a week into every production I've ever been in, I could smell how the show was going to go.  It was either going to work (with standard or exceptional effort), or it was going to stink.

Early on I'd think, "Oh, I can't leave.  I've made a committment.  I've got to stick it out and see what I can do to make it better."

And I would put my all in.  (All being: giving up work on a TV show to make a performance, when other people in the show (members of the theater company, actually), blew off performances to do paying gigs.)

Here's what I learned:

When you smell a stink, leave.

Here's what happened at the last show I got cast in. I was hired for a show in L.A.  At the first rehearsal, the schedule was disorganized, I had to wait for two hours because my call time was screwed up, other actors left early, and one of my fellow actors "playfully" jabbed me in the ribs with his elbow as a bit of improvised comedy.  (Those with stage combat experience out there know what a no-no that is.)

Total amateurs, and I knew it.

I smiled to everyone as I left, called my manager, and told him to say goodbye for me.  Three weeks into rehearsal the show folded and never got in front of an audience.

Sticking with pathogical conditions is a form a craziness.  (One definition of insanity: Repeating the same behavior and expecting a different result.)

When you know you have no business being some place, or hanging with a certain of group of people -- leave.  Don't feel bad about it, but do it politely.  Don't burn bridges, but get yourself out.  It's that simple.

Stick-to-it-ness matters... Up to a point.  But when that point is reached: Go.  You know that point, too.  We all do.  It's when we know things aren't going to change.  The trick is, we can ignore that warning.  Are you ignoring the warning for fear of "quitting"?  That's the line.

Just check your gut, my friend.

Take care,
Christopher

[Jack Spencer Jr]

Stick-to-it-ness matters... Up to a point.  But when that point is reached: Go.  You know that point, too.  We all do.  It's when we know things aren't going to change.  The trick is, we can ignore that warning.  Are you ignoring the warning for fear of "quitting"?  That's the line.

Just check your gut, my friend.

Well, here's the thing its that I don't really trust my gut because I really have lived a sheltered life and haven't seen very many things as far as human relationships go. So I'm not sure if this can change or not. "Ted" has already shown similar instances of being hard-headed and then turning around 180 degrees. I think it's more important that I do try instead of just politely leaving without doing so. Call it a personal growth thing. Besides, if Sorcerer does go badly, especially if "Ted" picks the game apart and why it's "broken" then I have a good out.

It's all about fear. I'm afraid of just being up front with Ted and would quit by simply not going the way I quit church (this pissed my dad off BTW). Also, quitting means either not playing anymore or finding a new group, which terrifies me.

I'm thirty years old. I need to face my fears sometime. I need to start having some life experiences. So we'll see what happens. I sure hope I don't chicken out.

[Jack Spencer Jr]

UPDATE:

As of yesterday my friend's girlfriend's game, the one I was bitchin' about above, is officially cancelled. The reason's why are sketchy at this time, but he says that she's "frustrated by several little things...and she doesn't know the rules very well." I have a pretty good idea that one of the frustrating little things is me because, well, I was just not into all the point allocating and stuff. I should've been more upfront about it, but, good god things were on the micromanagment level. Such as, for those of you who took me up on checking out my character sheet for this game, there's a page for likes and dislikes. She was unhappy with me because I only chose one thing under each cataegory, and some categories I only put down a like, not a dislike. To this I say, well whatever. I don't see the roleplaying potential or necessity in selecting my character's favorite foods when I can't even answer that question about myself, the real person! I mean, I haven't really met this character yet, that won't happen until actual play, so how am I supposed to know about these things? Besides, she's the type of person when something doesn't quite go her way she throws a hissy-fit. It could be the red hair, but it's probably just her.

Anyhow, this creates an interesting development since my friend (note I'm not calling him "Ted" anymore. Thank God for small favors) since my friend won't be ready to run his game (using these same rules) until probably after October, possibly later. This give me a nice little "in" to running something. All I really have to do is take it.

That said, I'm rethinking which game to run with these guys. To be frank, I don't think they'll "get" Sorcerer very well. Maybe they would, maybe the idea of demons would be too much of a hinderance. But all of that aside, I realised after reading the recent review on RPGnet that Elfs is much more in this group's style anyway.

For example, last week we did the wrap-up for the D&D game. The king (whom the group put on the throne BTW) was giving a very heartfelt speech "thanks for saving the world and stuff" kind of thing but completely serious and then to show his appreciation, he knelt before the group, and everyone in the audience knelt and the GM's gf yells "Leapfrog!" and jumped over the king and everyone else followed suit.

Cripes, man. They've been playing Elfs in spirit while using D&D rules! So my thinking is Elfs would go over better since it's humorous by nature and these guys get fairly silly. Sorcerer, while adaptable to most any tone, I would try to be too serious with it and that'd just go over like a lead ballon, I think. But that's my opinion.

Besides, Elfs is light enough that if they like it, I can try Sorcerer out on them afterwards (especially if I get my friend to forget about his own game) or if not, there's still the possibility for the other group.

Besides, I'd like to read Practical Demonkeeping first before trying to GM Sorcerer, but lately I've been reading some Salinger I've picked up somewhere (Raise High the Roof Beam, Carpenters and Seymour- An Introduction if you're interested) so it'll take a while. I am such a slow reader.

[ADGBoss]

Your stick-to-it ness is commendable but it seems to me that there is a more serious problem here.  You mentioned that your the only with a car? Thats not good doing the whole "can I get a ride thing." It actually seems to me that Ted is not the one keeping this group together. I think you are. Sure he is the forceful p[ersonality here but none of the rest of them seem motivated enough that IF you left the group would survive very long.
I applaud the people here who say stick to it, be an adult, try and change them but I doubt any of them want to change because they do not see a need for it.
If you went to another group I am sure your wife would follow, but no matter how much the others might beg, don't let them. Make a break for yourself and experience new people and new faces.  The group itself seems like its got alot of problems, problems that you do not need to solve. If you love Role Playing (like I do) find a group of people that let you love it.  This is not going on here.

Just my 2 Lunars and as someone else on here says, I am not a Therapist but the advice is free

SMH
ADGBoss

[xiombarg]

I don't see the roleplaying potential or necessity in selecting my character's favorite foods when I can't even answer that question about myself, the real person! I mean, I haven't really met this character yet, that won't happen until actual play, so how am I supposed to know about these things?

As a quick aside, this is an issue that's been discussed a lot on rec.games.frp.advocacy in the distant past (back when I read it regularly) but hasn't gotten much play here on the Forger (that I know of): Develop-in-play character creation and develop-before-play character creation. Some people like everything defined ahead of time, other prefer to develop the character as you go. USUALLY discussion can allievate tension between the two camps, as most system allow for a reasonable mix of the styles, at least as far as personality traits go. With this group, who knows...

[Jack Spencer Jr]

RE-UPDATE:

It seems her game is back on after all. It seemed to be that:

1) she disliked my friend correcting her and re-explaining stuff she'd just explained even though he was just being helpful and he wrote the damned rules.

Wimming!

2) one play in particular, and not me as I had feared, was pissing her off something fierce. He's the one who memerizes the rules because he can. Sort of the rules lawyer, but I personally haven't seen him use this to an advantage. He just corrects rulings via the rules as written. So it's still annoying.

In any case, this completely shoots down my last post. But I've been re-reading my copy of Elfs and I'm not sure now if that's what I want to do after all. (Gah!) The player/character experiment in Elfs really isn't for this group IMO. So I'll have to give it some more thought.

[Jack Spencer Jr]

Hey, ADGBoss

I should probably clairify a few things. Usually Ted picks up the other three. He works in sales and he doesn't seem to mind. One of the guys usually spends the night. Two of them used to, but the other guy is allergic to cats (Ted has like 9 of 'em) and can't spend the night anymore. The third is 17, like I had said so his parents kind of expect him home.

So I strongly suspect that if I were to leave, Ted would pick up the dropping everybody off slack. We just do because we live further away than anybody so, more-or-less, everyone else is on our way home.

I think what keeps me on this is Ted, and to a certain exstent, his girlfriend. He is my oldest friend and shut-ins like me don't have many friends. I've known the man nine years or so. There's been a lot of water under that particular bridge. That and I'm pretty sure that he'd get the most out of these crazy new RPGs I've been tinkering with, but so far he's been resistent. I showed him kill puppies for satan. I showed him Elfs. I showed him Little Fears. I showed him Orkworld. SO far he hasn't given them much more than a passing glance. I would tell him about the Forge except I doubt he'd look around here much either, and I wouldn't want him to see these post. Hmmm...

I think it's because he needs to see that these games work, they are worthwhile and fun and that he should rethink coming up with a Rolemaster/GURPS clone because for all of that work, it's not any more fun.

Yeah, OK GNS and all of that, but I'm pretty sure that in there somewhere he has Narrativist prioreties and he just needs them exercised with a proper system to realise the true potential of what he's trying to do without all of that other baggage which doesn't help with his goal.

His girlfriend is a little harder to pin, but I think that she'd fall in line with this even faster than him once she got a handle on it. Might take her longer to get a handle, but she'd still get it.

So that's what this is all about. Or so it seems to me at this moment.