Conscience Spiritual Attribute

[Shadeling]

Ok, here is my question- Is Conscience always defined as do the right thing, or can it be modified based on characters?

[Unsane]

I'm not positive, as I don't have the core book yet, but I would guess that the conscience varies from character to character depending on their moral standards.  Basically, whatever they feel is right.

[Lance D. Allen]

Conscience is as flexible as any of the others. Don't allow any player here to dictate to you what any single SA means.. Not even, really, Jake. Jake can explain what it was intended to be, but like all roleplaying games, these are subject to interpretation.

My interpretation? Conscience doesn't require any descriptors, but I allow my players to add a descriptor if they choose. I had originally a descriptor for Conscience on Tiberius "Right is determined by Law" then dropped it, because I liked the conflicts inherent in an undefined Conscience, when the right thing may not always be legal.

[Mike Holmes]

The nice thing about the open-endedness of Drives is that it can cover a lot of things. If you want to specialize your conscience, make it a Drive, instead. As in Drive: Ensure that right is maintained by Law.

Thaet leaves conscience to be there for all those random moments where the character's morals come into play. What's cool about that, is that you can define the cahracter's ideals as he goes, and they can change. If he declares that he is saving a dog because his conscience will not let him leave it to die, then that says somehting about the character on the spot. If the character passes up such an opportunity, that also says something about the character.

Mike

[contracycle]

Hmm, I dunno - that right is lawful does look like a conscience thing to me; this would suggest the character who is doing the "right" thing but which happens to be illegal, and THAT conflict is what is, indeed, troubling their consceince.  Doing "what you think is right" seems pretty meaningless to me, as everyone probably thinks everything they do is right.  Drive, on the other hand, seems to imply a much more proactive, stronger emotion that is about what you actively do and achieve rather than how you evaluate and intepret.

[Mike Holmes]

Hmm, I dunno - that right is lawful does look like a conscience thing to me; this would suggest the character who is doing the "right" thing but which happens to be illegal, and THAT conflict is what is, indeed, troubling their consceince.  Doing "what you think is right" seems pretty meaningless to me, as everyone probably thinks everything they do is right.  Drive, on the other hand, seems to imply a much more proactive, stronger emotion that is about what you actively do and achieve rather than how you evaluate and intepret.

Sure the "Right is lawful" thing could apply to conscience in certain circulmstances. Nobody ever said that a particular action could not cause more than one SA to com into play. By defining it as a drive, that part only comes into play when you are actively doing something to preserve Law.

And Conscience is defined as it is defined in the game. You can twist it if you like, but it is meant for those ocasions where a character is doing something because he feels it is right to do it. Does that mean that it counts for every action, just because most pewople think they are right in everything they do as you claim? No. First, some people do things and feel guilty about them as they do them. No, really. In any case, a player could probably claim that his character feels right in killing that baby, but I as a GM don't have to buy it. Nor give the dice. More importantly, there are only certain occasions where you are "doing something right" that your conscience, that little voice inside, really kicks in to make a difference. For example, if you ar rolling to fix a sword, it might not be wrong, but you aren't oing to get conscience points for it. Only when there is a discenrable moral context should the GM be giveing dice.

One cool thing about this is that it encourages players to do things that may not be in their character's best interest. Sure it might be more expedient to leave the slaves behind, and not release them. But you aren't going to get conscience dice by taking that rout. You'll get them for fighting through the guards to perform that selfless act of salvation.

It seems very intuitve when to ask for Conscience dice as a player. interesingly it's when my conscience tells me it's the right thing to do.

Mike

[Mokkurkalfe]

To me, Concience is what the little angel over my shoulder(not the devil guy) represents. This usually means mercy, helping those who need help etc.

I interpret it as the "goodness" of the character. All but the most cold-hearted of cruel, selfish bastards will have at least one(1) point.

Edit: Hmm, I think I just repeated what Mike just said...

[Nick the Nevermet]

I think my measure for Conscience would be to make sure of a few things.  Conscience cannot be defined as pragmatic or self-serving.  It needs to be in the service of some higher ideal of how the world should work with clear answers to what is the moral and the good.  I would lean towards making a Passion: The Law more than concience, but it could work.  Such a character would need to go beyond the letter to the spirit, though.  A character like that would stand for Truth, Justice, and the American way, and act like Batman from the 1960s TV show (but without the camp).  It would be a sincere belief that the truly moral society is a law abiding one.

Passion: Law, however, allows a bit of obsession to enter in.  We see tons of obsessed cops and prosecutors on American TV.  Its not that this obsession is against morality, but it doesn't equate to it either.

I agree with Mike that Conscience works best when its the player's intuition.  Depending on the player, I would be wary or interested in seeing a Conscience: Bushido or somesuch.

I also politely disagree with Mokkurkalfe saying "All but the most cold-hearted of cruel, selfish bastards will have at least one(1) point."  My interpretation of a Spiritual attribute is that you have a passion to the point that it can make you greater than you are.  There are tons of good people who 'don't want to get involved.'  They wouldn't have SA conscience.  There are tons of people in love, but I don't think they all have Passion: Love.  Where Mokkurkalfe give the benefit of the doubt to having Conscience, I would give the benefit of the doubt to not having it.  Just my interpretation.

[Mokkurkalfe]

I also politely disagree with Mokkurkalfe saying "All but the most cold-hearted of cruel, selfish bastards will have at least one(1) point."  My interpretation of a Spiritual attribute is that you have a passion to the point that it can make you greater than you are.  There are tons of good people who 'don't want to get involved.'  They wouldn't have SA conscience.  There are tons of people in love, but I don't think they all have Passion: Love.  Where Mokkurkalfe give the benefit of the doubt to having Conscience, I would give the benefit of the doubt to not having it.  Just my interpretation.

Clearly a case of different views. My view of Concience is that it's something (almost)everybody have, but not always pursuit.

*Doing some thinking*

oh, alright, perhaps not everybody, but a sizable percentage.

[Jaif]

I think this is one of those unresolvable debates.  However, if you claim that most people have a conscience, but not everyone reacts to it, then is what you're describing as 'conscience' meanigfull?  In other words, I do bad things, but feel sorry for it internally; the other guy does the same bad things, and doesn't feel a thing.  From an outside perspective, two people just did bad things.

I think the only practical definition of conscience in a story is something which forcefully drives people.  We're not just talking about people who avoid doing wrong, but those rare few who are driven to right wrongs.

-Jeff