Clarification about mass weapons

[Spartan]

OK, I know these are kind of  dumb questions, but I thought I'd ask just to make sure...

Mass weapons and shock:  It says in the weapon description that mass weapons add shock, usually "Damage Level" +or- 1.  Is Damage Level another way of saying "Wound Level" (i.e. 1-5... that's my guess)?  It's not stated explicitly that I can see.  Also, it appears in the Combat Sim that they add shock even if the Damage Rating is 0... is that right?  Should a glancing blow deliver any shock?

Secondly, the added bloodloss from flails and such...  Does it occur on every successful strike, even those with a DR of 0?

Mind you, my dad always said there were no stupid questions... only stupid people... or something like that (I think that's a quote from somewhere, just not sure where)! ;)

FTR, I just can't adequately say how much I love this game.

Thanks,
     -Mark

[Shadeling]

That is the advantage of Mass weapons, they always tend to do shock and pain. I mean think of a warrior in a suit of plate armor. He deflects a couple of sword blows, but then gets hit with a maul. Though his armor stops the damage like the sword blows-he gets knocked a few feet-the shock. He gets up, only to realize-it really hurts to have that armor dented against his skin.

[Jasper]

What about toughness: is the wound rating used for the extra shock taken before you factor in TO or after?

[Lance D. Allen]

I'll have to read up on mass weapons adding shock before I can answer that aspect, but for the morningstar and bloodloss, I have my take..

It mentions it, I do believe, as additional bloodloss. Therefore, unless there is bloodloss described in the wound, I do not add any. That is just me.

Alternately, I would allow any of the effects of a weapon only on a level 1 wound or higher. A level 0 wound is a grazing wound.. the scrapes and nicks that don't matter in the battle, but can be irritants afterward. If I wanted to be a real bastard, I'd keep track of the number, type and location of level 0 wounds, and apply them later as minor bruises, scrapes and scratches. Not enough to cause even a single pain point (unless there are an awful lot of them, perhaps) but something to add a little realism to a scenario.

[Lyrax]

Mass weapons do extra shock according to the DAMAGE level, not the WOUND level.

To clarify:

Joe the Maul has a maul, which, if I remember correctly, does x + 1 shock, where x is the damage level.

Let's say that Joe's strength is 6, and he gets 2 successes on an attack that isn't blocked, for a damage level of 8.  Regardless of his opponent's armor and toughness, the attack deals an extra (8 + 1) nine shock.  When fighting armored opponents, this helps represent the disorienting but undamaging blows one can recieve while armored.

I know, it seems unfair.  But when one looks at the ATN of this weapon, he will realize that it isn't so unfair.

[Spartan]

Mass weapons do extra shock according to the DAMAGE level, not the WOUND level.

The combat sim seems to equate it with Wound Level instead, and bleeders are included on any WL of 1 or higher.  Maybe Jake can clarify when he gets back (Not that I don't believe you, Lyrax, I just want to be sure)?

-Mark

[Brian Leybourne]

Mass weapons do extra shock according to the DAMAGE level, not the WOUND level.

The combat sim seems to equate it with Wound Level instead, and bleeders are included on any WL of 1 or higher.  Maybe Jake can clarify when he gets back (Not that I don't believe you, Lyrax, I just want to be sure)?

Don't take that as necessarily meaning anything, since Jake didn't write the sim :-)

Having said that, the way the sim works is how I always envisioned the shock+X working (which is why the sim is that way, obviously). Admittedly, if you read the rules it does seem that Lyrax is right, but I prefer it the other way, otherwise it makes mass weapons too good.

Plus, it's not 100% clear. The rules talk about working out your damage level by adding attack successes and strength etc, then subtract toughness and armor. A lot rests on a couple of commas and full stops as to where the description of "damage level" ends, if you see what I mean.

Also, it seems counter intuitive that the "damage level" is the attackers successes + bonus, and you then subtract the toughness etc from that. That means it wasn't really the damage level, was it? Surely the damage level should be the end result (i.e. another term for wound level) because thats how much damage the person takes.

ANyway, Jake can clear all this up when he gets back (in the next couple of days I believe).

Brian.

[Lance D. Allen]

Okay, to reiterate, there should be no additional special effects if damage is reduced to nothing. A grazing mace, despite the song, does not fell an opponent, nor do a whole series of grazing maces. It's going to take at least a minimal but solid shot to apply the additional effects.

This is not true of closing range, though. If you successfully hit, but do no damage, you've still hit and closed range (or opened it, if you are the longer weapon) despite there being no other effect.

[Brian Leybourne]

This is not true of closing range, though. If you successfully hit, but do no damage, you've still hit and closed range (or opened it, if you are the longer weapon) despite there being no other effect.

I agree with you that that's the way it *should* be (and that's the way I do it), but according to the rules, it's wrong. On page 78 it's pretty clear that range only changes after a DAMAGING blow.

Brian.

[Lance D. Allen]

Call page 78 errata then, because I cleared it with Jake, personally. Tiberius has a lot of issues with his shorter weapon, so I checked this out thoroughly. He said so long as the strike is successful, then you've closed/opened range.

[Lyrax]

Ruling: Even if I cause a level 0 or level -n wound, it counts as a damaging blow for the purposes of range.

I'm not THE official rulemaster, but I think it's safe to say that this is what Jake has in mind.

[Spartan]

Having said that, the way the sim works is how I always envisioned the shock+X working (which is why the sim is that way, obviously). Admittedly, if you read the rules it does seem that Lyrax is right, but I prefer it the other way, otherwise it makes mass weapons too good.

Plus, it's not 100% clear. The rules talk about working out your damage level by adding attack successes and strength etc, then subtract toughness and armor. A lot rests on a couple of commas and full stops as to where the description of "damage level" ends, if you see what I mean.

Yeah, true.  It's all in the interpretation.  What's your advice on this, Jake?  Inquiring minds want to know! :)

-Mark

[Jake Norwood]

Howdy.

My thinking, for purposes of range, a level 0 wound is still a hit, and range is closed. As for shock, pain, and BL, I don't think that mass weapons should get the bonus when no normal damage is dealt.

So it's like this:

When closing range, a lvl 0 wound is good enough, but for weapon-based damage bonuses, you need at least a lvl 1.

Sound good?

Jake

[Spartan]

When closing range, a lvl 0 wound is good enough, but for weapon-based damage bonuses, you need at least a lvl 1.

Yeah but what about the Shock?  Is it based on Wound Level, or Weapon Damage or what?  In the weapon chart it defines Shock as being "Damage Level" +/- #.  What is the "Damage Level"?  It's not stated specifically anywhere that I can see.  I've been equating it with "Wound Level"... is that right?

-Mark

[Jake Norwood]

When closing range, a lvl 0 wound is good enough, but for weapon-based damage bonuses, you need at least a lvl 1.

Yeah but what about the Shock?  Is it based on Wound Level, or Weapon Damage or what?  In the weapon chart it defines Shock as being "Damage Level" +/- #.  What is the "Damage Level"?  It's not stated specifically anywhere that I can see.  I've been equating it with "Wound Level"... is that right?

-Mark

Honestly, I think orginally it was pre-TO and everything, but that's waaayyy off. Calculate it from the wound received.

Jake