yes, but would anyone like it?

[Jeremy Cole]

Newbie with game concerns.  I am writing a game with a hardcore character focus.

Basically the focus in the rules is
1)  Encouraging players to develop characters with meaningful personalities (and with incentives for them to actually follow their personality).
2)  A system that allows for GM improvisation to be quick and painless (NPCs with a single stat can be sufficient, and if coupled with 2-3 skills you have more detail than most players would ever notice).

I'd rather not have any overarching metaplots (other than one the GM may develop as the game progresses).  Rather, I'd like to see a group of people get put into Generica USA and see how their character types influence the region, as they rise(fall) and develop.

I am quite keen on the idea, but does a hardcore character focus (anywhere on GNS) appeal to you, even theoretically?

Has this sort of thing been done before (places to borrow from?).

[Jasper]

When you say the focus of the rules is going to be personality development, I assume that's what the game (the play) is about too, right?  Did you actually have any rules in mind yet, or are you just at the brainstorming stage now?  

I think you should keep rewards in mind, since just "developping your personality" doesn't give much direction.  You'll need something to get in the way of that, and some mechanics for formally reckognizing personality development.  Are more detailed characters good -- and should be rewarded, or just different characters from what you start out with?  You'll need to track that change, and make it non-trivial to accomplish in-game.

Are you intending players to play just ordinary joe schmoes?  Or do they have "powers" or somesuch to set them apart from ordinary people? (You do mention their "rise(fall)".)  I'd suggest checking out SOAP (see the links I think).  It's all about interpersonal relationships and, to a lesser degree, development of a sort.  Is this the sort of thing you're intending?

It's hard to say much more without specifics.

[Valamir]

Basically the focus in the rules is
1)  Encouraging players to develop characters with meaningful personalities (and with incentives for them to actually follow their personality).

I recommend checking out Pendragon and Riddle of Steel for games that do this exceptionally well.  Riddle of Steel's system in particular is well able to customize to a wide range of character possbilities.  The whole game centers on the question "what is (to you) worth fighting for".

2)  A system that allows for GM improvisation to be quick and painless (NPCs with a single stat can be sufficient, and if coupled with 2-3 skills you have more detail than most players would ever notice).

I can't remember the game I saw it in, but one of the most effective systems I saw in this regard worked thusly.  There were never any NPC rolls.  All rolls were made by Players based on their fully detailed PC stats.  The difficulty of those rolls depended on the NPC they were opposing.  NPCs then were nothing but a list of a handful of things they were good at, really good at, or poor at for purposes of setting the appropriate difficulty.  When the NPC wished to accomplish something he was assumed to be successful at whatever level he was.  If a random element was needed there was a mechanism (similiar in effect to FUDGE dice but using only 1 die) to increase or decrease his effective capability.

I'd rather not have any overarching metaplots (other than one the GM may develop as the game progresses).  Rather, I'd like to see a group of people get put into Generica USA and see how their character types influence the region, as they rise(fall) and develop.

[Jeremy Cole]

My original post was a little vague.  Sorry if I gave the idea of a narrative style, the idea is a lot more simulationist.  Really, I want a system where the GM doesn't have the tables, multiple stats (all with their own value systems) and complicated modifier systems, so that he feels comfortable improvising almost all of the session's play.

I like the idea of beginning the game with a short history of the city, where major events would be given by the GM, and the players would use these to help form their characters.  I think a stronger party synergy could exist this way, as well as a better understanding of the town's history.

The idea of starting in a city (or region, small planet, whatever) and having these five odd people shaping the town over their lives, as the town in turn shapes them (as responses to their actions would change their fundamentals).

I guess I'm really interested in the film noir feeling of the city as an entity, a key character, maybe even an antagonist.  Placed against the culture of the city, players would attempt to meet their own values.

[Jeremy Cole]

To define player characters, I think a group of 'fundamentals' would do.  The fundamentals would include ethics, drives, loyalties, nature, whatever else.

Basically the major source of stat boosting would come from following these fundamentals.  Further, following them would have to be proactive, the player would have to out of his way to be gregarious, or spiteful, or make significant steps towards his ambition to see the local zoo bankrupt, whatever.  I want characters with clear reasons to interact with each other, in assistance and opposition as the situation requires.

I think the idea has definite potential, but I am really keen to see if other people are interested in such a concept.  Roleplaying games get sold on a hook, and it is normally based on the characters, Vampire etc.  Any thoughts are welcome because this is definitely a vague concept at present.

[MPOSullivan]

I can't remember the game I saw it in, but one of the most effective systems I saw in this regard worked thusly.  There were never any NPC rolls.  All rolls were made by Players based on their fully detailed PC stats.  The difficulty of those rolls depended on the NPC they were opposing.  

i think you're thinking of Whispering Vault.  PCs where extradimensionally-empowered humans entrusted with the protection of reality.  Kind of like Clive Barker redoes the Green Lantern Corp in his own image.  IN that, NPC Stats were listed in difficulty ranges rather than rolled traits  You may want to check the game out for that idea, which it implements rather well.

laters,

   -m

[Valamir]

I actually just managed to pick up the Vault at GenCon for $3.00

Haven't had a chance to look at it yet, so that can't be the game I'm remembering, but it sounds like exactly the type of thing I'm thinking of.

[Ron Edwards]

Hey,

Going back to the first post of the thread, and getting away from the GNS issue (which I think is confounding the point) ...

I suggest picking up and learning the rules for Hero Wars. It suits precisely the specifications you describe - personality mechanics are tremendously important and effective, they change and develop through play, and NPCs are described in very few words and numbers.

The Riddle of Steel is just right in terms of the personality mechanics, but in all honesty, making up NPCs for it is quite a chore. Pendragon is another game that's like TROS in this respect. I do think both are worth a look (and more than a look) for anyone who's interested in the issues you raise.

Best,
Ron

[Mike Holmes]

Yep, Whispering Vault.

Nip,

I like the idea of Char Sim a lot. But, you've kinda aoided Jasper's very good question. It's all fine and good that we've got interesting people, set against Generica (or "The City" for nior). But what sort of action does the play center around? In what context do players "attempt to meet their own values".

Is it Soap Operaesque melodrama? Is it detective action? Is it business wheeling and dealing? All of the above? Or is it just to be standard day-to-day life. People have discussed the latter, but nobody has ever caught a way to do this that sounded at all engaging (anybody remember the post that I'm talking about that discussed the "normal life" RPG?). I think I see you're angle, but I'm not sure how you'll get there.

When you say characters with "meaningful personalities" I thnk to myself, I've got a meaningful personality, but I don't think anyone's goiong to want to play me in an RPG. What will make people want to play them?

If there is no answer, then the answer to the question posited by this post is no.

Mike

[Jeremy Cole]

Thanks for your interest everybody.

What are the characters?  That has not really been the focus of what I'm thinking about just yet.  But I like the idea of characters that start at the lowest rungs of society, drunks and call girls.  They may or may not stay there depending on how the game pans out.  The character will develop, but differently depending on whether or not they are successful in what they attempt.  Maybe WHFRP careers, maybe skill lists.

Is it based on real life?  Not if I keep the noir stylings.  In fact, even if I don't keep noir, I doubt very much gameplay will have much to do with real life (or at least my life).

Are they superpowered? Certainly not excessively. A theme to noir is that even if you believe something or want something with all your heart, sometimes you just aren't good enough to get it.  There's a pragmatism that has to develop.  If you're drunk with a protective streak for a young homeless girl, and that girl is in trouble, you will definitely act to help her.  But you're still a drunk.  The reward will come from exp., not an increased chance of success.

[Jeremy Cole]

It certainly seems that there is interest in a hardcore character focus, which is really what I wanted to know before I ran with this idea.  I think I may just build a crude system, and see how easy it is for my different playing groups to build their own adventures.  Any comments and suggestions are welcome, this game is now eight days in the making.

Really, here is my total thought on the topic to date.
A game focussed on characters, not setting or plot.
The characters would have fundamentals, and there would be a reward mechanic to encourage players to play these fundamentals.  The reward would vary depending on the result of their actions.
A system to synchronise players and the city, the characters would be created as the history of the city is told to players.
Is it possible to have a city generator, generating a city as the players are generated?  To what extent does pre-game culture for the city have to be developed?
If random city building fails I have a culture and city drawn up that could be grafted onto the above, quite easily.

TROS and Hero Wars definitely sound like very wise places to look for inspiration, thanks.