Activation Costs questions

[viktor_haag]

I have a few questions about activation costs, most specifically for feints.

Costs for feints
================
The costs for feint&cut and feint&thrust are listed as variable, except for Rapier which has cost (1).

How does one determine the feint costs for other weapons? I can find the answer nowhere in the rules.

Here's the house rule I'm using until clarification:

"To feint, your activation cost is equal to number of CP dice you want to add to the attack for the feint. This means the real cost for the feint is double the attack bonus. Rapiers, however, only pay one to activate a feint, so their real costs are (attack bonus+1)."

Is this close to what was intended?

Costs for mass weapon parries
=============================
Parries with 'Sword&Shield' are easier if you're not holding the shield (i.e. they're normally 1, or 0 without the shield).

However, parries with Mass Weapon & Shield cost 1.

What if you're not using the shield and you want to parry with a club/mace, etc?

Should the cost be (2) when using a shield, and (1) when not? Or the other way around? (i.e., it costs (1) to parry with the shield itself, (0) to parry with a sword, and (2) to parry with a club/mace/mass weapon)

I have stuck with the straight (1) cost to this point, but I have a PC who has taken mass weapon & shield so I suspect this question will arise very soon...

[Thirsty Viking]

I have a few questions about activation costs, most specifically for feints.

Costs for feints
================
The costs for feint&cut and feint&thrust are listed as variable, except for Rapier which has cost (1).

How does one determine the feint costs for other weapons? I can find the answer nowhere in the rules.

Here's the house rule I'm using until clarification:

"To feint, your activation cost is equal to number of CP dice you want to add to the attack for the feint. This means the real cost for the feint is double the attack bonus. Rapiers, however, only pay one to activate a feint, so their real costs are (attack bonus+1)."

Is this close to what was intended?

I'm not sure,  but in the descriptions I have fients are described as costing 1d + (1d for every die you add you your attack)

Thus to add 3d to an attack after the defender specifies his defence  costs 4d in addition to the 3d.   I don't think this chages for the rapier,  but 'll let JAKE weigh in there.

Costs for mass weapon parries
=============================
Parries with 'Sword&Shield' are easier if you're not holding the shield (i.e. they're normally 1, or 0 without the shield).

However, parries with Mass Weapon & Shield cost 1.

What if you're not using the shield and you want to parry with a club/mace, etc?

Should the cost be (2) when using a shield, and (1) when not? Or the other way around? (i.e., it costs (1) to parry with the shield itself, (0) to parry with a sword, and (2) to parry with a club/mace/mass weapon)

I have stuck with the straight (1) cost to this point, but I have a PC who has taken mass weapon & shield so I suspect this question will arise very soon...

I'd assume that they are handled the same as sword and shield.  Shields get in the way of parries....   shields don't parry they block.   Mass weapons are hard to parry with  (DTN is higher usualy an 8) the player should want to block shield, not parry with mace.

[Brian Leybourne]

I don't have the book in front of me, so I can't give you a page reference, but it's pretty clearly spelled out in the feint description.

To activate a feint costs 1d. After that, you  drop two dice per die you would like to add to the attack. So if I want to feint and I have 7 dice in my pool, I spend one to activate the feint, then drop the other 6 to add 3 dice to my original attack (and I must change the attack location).

The reason the cost is listed as variable is because the NEXT time I feint against that same opponent, the activation cost goes up by one. It now costs me 2d to activate (and I still have to drop two dice to add one die to the attack). The next time after that, activation is 3d, and so on.

Brian.

[Lance D. Allen]

I think you might have it wrong there, Brian. While it does mention Geralt spending a die to activate the feint in the example, it specifies no activation cost outside of the 1 die per die added (so to add 4 dice to your attack costs 8 CP total) in the actual description. This has lead me to believe that it has no activation cost outside of this variable, unless otherwise specified, as with Rapierand Case of Rapiers. This variable cost is pretty hefty as it is, as a decent feint can be quite dangerous to fail at. The additional cost of further feints against the same opponent is spot on, though; That part is clearly defined in the description.

However it goes, I suppose it'll depend on whether it was simply omitted in the description, or was an error in the example of play.

[Jake Norwood]

You're both right. Brian is right in the case of the Rapier, etc., and Lance is right elsewhere. Yay us.

Jake

ps. I confess that the cost for a feint is hefty. My thinking is that this is for that big-time feint, not the numerous little sort-of-feints that fighters use constantly to open their opponent up. The standard attack dice cover that.

[viktor_haag]

You're both right. Brian is right in the case of the Rapier, etc., and Lance is right elsewhere. Yay us.

OK, unfortunately, now I'm more confused than previously. So feinting with a Rapier is harder than with other styles of fighting (i.e. it has a higher activation cost?). This doesn't seem to make sense to me, so let me ask for an example. Actually two contrasting examples.

One fighter, CP 15 with both sword and shield, and rapier. He wants to feint, hasn't feinted before with this target. He starts by attacking with five dice, and wants to feint to add three more dice.

What's the activation cost in sword and shield? (It seems to be zero, but it costs him six dice to add the three dice to his pool).

What's the activation cost in rapier? (It seems to be one, but it costs him six dice to add the three dice to his pool).

This doesn't seem sensible, so I must be mistaken. Or am I?

Why does using a rapier with feints have a higher activation cost? Is it really tougher to feint with a rapier?

Are the activation costs the same with both feint+cut and feint+thrust? With both sword&shield and rapier?

Sorry for being so dense over this...


--
Viktor

[Jake Norwood]

Viktor-

I'll try.

If you're feinting for 6 dice spent, you add 3 to your pool. With a rapier you have to spend 7 dice to get 3 into your pool. Truth be told, I don't remember why I did it that way. I've begun spending more time practising IRL with a rapier, and my opinion may change by the time I get to TFOB.

I don't think that it's actually harder to feint with a rapier, but rather that the standard attack with a rapier includes quite a bit of "feint" allready, hence the low ATN--the speed and deceptiveness of the weapon make it easier to strike with. The "feint" maneuver is really something more than that, thus the higher cost.

I think that's what I was thinking.

Jake

[Lance D. Allen]

Maybe the +1 CP only applies when the rapier fighter attempts a feint from a thrust, seeing as how rapier is the only weapon style capable of it?