half-poling

[Lyrax]

Having been taught the very basics of bo-staff, I've noted that the middle-hold technique is best used for defensive purposes. Both ends of the staff are available to block, and to strike if the opportunity presents itself. I would agree that holding it in the middle would definitely reduce the effective range of the weapon, but I think a lower DTN would be in order as well.

Not to be totally contrary to ya', but if you were fighting against me, and I had a sword, then I'd just cut off all your fingers.  I doubt you'd be in a mood to hurt me, after that.

[Thirsty Viking]

while the theory of that is good,  you might find the implementation hard...   especially against a short staff.

[Jake Norwood]

Yeah, the Silver stuff is great. I took on two guys with sword and buckler today at the "short" staff with almost no difficulty. One of them is quite good, as well, and fast. I tried half-staffing (RH style) against a long staff (using the "parries" from the Meyer plate on p. 56(?)), and found the parry to be good, if a little unneccesary.

Jake

[Lance D. Allen]

Y'know Lance... I've very, very little training with a staff, but I'd really like to take you on, staff-to-sword. I doubt that you'll hit my fingers even once, and I'll guarantee that I'll hit you several times before you hit me once. Admittedly that one hit with a blade is going to hurt more than several moderate whacks with a stick, but...

The staff is NOT a toy, despite how most roleplaying games try to portray it.

Not a real sword, of course.. Just to clarify, I don't want anyone chopping at me even to prove a point. ::winks::

[svenlein]

Does Silver account for armor?

Would he suggest two swordmen in plate would lose to one "short" staffer in plate?

Scott

[Lyrax]

Y'know Lance... I've very, very little training with a staff, but I'd really like to take you on, staff-to-sword. I doubt that you'll hit my fingers even once, and I'll guarantee that I'll hit you several times before you hit me once. Admittedly that one hit with a blade is going to hurt more than several moderate whacks with a stick, but...

I've had a small amount of training myself, I'd kinda like that as well.  Unless neither of us was wearing protection, that would just suck... but seriously, you have to think about this... if I miss your fingers, what will I hit?  Your staff?  Then I can just slide my sword along the staff and cut your fingers.  Big improvement.  Will I hit your chest?  That's not much better, either.  I'm going to hit something because the sword, like the staff, isn't a toy.  It's not heavy, it's versatile, and it is anything but slow.  Just like the staff (although I still, and probably always will, think that you're putting yourself at a very unnecessary disadvantage with the half-grip.)

[Lance D. Allen]

You'll hit the staff. If I stand there and let you slide your sword along the staff, then I deserve to lose my fingers. Whole issue is, the staff won't stop moving long enough for you to do that. You'll hit the staff, or the staff will hit your sword... It matters not. When it comes right down to it, the staff is a much faster weapon than the sword, because of the style of the grip and the fact that it can strike from both ends. I'm inclined to disagree with anyone who says that a center grip is a handicap, if you're on the defensive, and have even the least amount of training with that style of holding it.

[Jake Norwood]

Okay, I'm popping in here. Lances--cut it out.

Lyrax Lance--I could kick your trash any day with a staff vs. a sword. And you know it. See you at practice saturday.

Okay, enough of "Jake the Moderator." Sheesh I hate doing that.

On to a better question:

Does Silver account for armor?

Would he suggest two swordmen in plate would lose to one "short" staffer in plate?

Scott

Silver refers to his principles applying in armour and out, and often states that he is interested in men training for two reasons only: (1) to defend their own lives on the street, and (2) to defend their country against enemies. The second definitely includes armor. Silver does not, however, (that I'm aware) give any special instructions for armored fighting, and most of his advice seems to assume little or no armor.

In contrast, Maximillian, the old German (?) emporor, was quite the fighter. There is a decent sized section of his manual fighting with 6' staves and in armor. The bulk of the fight is "robin hood" style as we've been calling it. This is both understandable and advisable in armor, as the blow of a staff will do little against plate, but can be very useful for closing in and tangling up your opponent so that you can break limbs or kill with the knife.

I highly reccoment Dr. Sydny Anglo's "The Martial Arts of Rennaissance Europe" for more info on the staff and on both Silver and ol' Maximillian.

Jake

[Gordon C. Landis]

This seems like as good a place as any to bring up this issue -

So, I studied Shotokan Karate for a bit, I know folks in the SCA, I know some fencers, I've sparred a bit, held a sword - but really, nothing that really means anything.  I'm totally looking to the experts for information here.  

But Silver - I've seen his book absolutely TRASHED by a number of supposed experts.  I mean really, really dismissed as a piece of junk, useless as a meaningful reference on real weapon fighting back then.  Likely written only to get more people to pay him money as an instructor.

I don't expect anyone can give a definitive answer on the legitimacy of Silver, but I'm curious - did something change recently that raised the reputation of this book?  Or is it this one of those "folks just disagree" situations?

Gordon

[Jake Norwood]

This seems like as good a place as any to bring up this issue -

But Silver - I've seen his book absolutely TRASHED by a number of supposed experts.  I mean really, really dismissed as a piece of junk, useless as a meaningful reference on real weapon fighting back then.  Likely written only to get more people to pay him money as an instructor.

I don't expect anyone can give a definitive answer on the legitimacy of Silver, but I'm curious - did something change recently that raised the reputation of this book?  Or is it this one of those "folks just disagree" situations?

Gordon

Honestly, I've never heard this about Silver, but then again, maybe I'm talking to different people.

First, who are these "experts?" Experts in what? If they're from there aforementioned groups, here are some *possible* explanations why they don't like Silver:

*SCA- I actually think that most SCA folks think highly of Silver, but they may have issues with him based on Collegiate Fencing, below...

*Collegiate/Olypic/Sport Fencers- Silver repeatedly trashes the rapier, and on good grounds, if he's a little over-opinionated about it. He advocates use of the cut not over the thrust, but as being as important, and actually seems to prefer it. He taught real fighting, esp. for war, and the type of training that Fencers do is a sport representation of an old training game derived from the small sword, a weapon descended from the rapier, which Silver hates.

*Laymen- Silver's terminology is admittedly very confusing in a number of places for academics that know little of actual swordplay and for "fighters" that know little of early modern English and Silver's lingo. Confusion leads to distrust of material.

The bottom line is that there is nothing in Silver that isn't martially sound, although his advice may not be to the preferences of some schools of thought. He rambles a great deal in his first book, Paradoxes of Defence, and makes some impressive (though not wild) claims. His second book, Brief Instructions on my Paradoxes of Defence is a bona-fide fighting manual and has oodles of excellent advice. He's not tremendously organized by today's standards, but likewise not less organized than other manuals I've seen (in many cases he's more organized--at least he attempted it). Either of Silver's books can be fount at www.thearma.org and/or at the aemma website, a link to which is somewhere on this thread, but I forget where (and I'm too lazy to check).

Hope that helps. As everything in any martial art, there's a lot of hot air and a lot of different and violent opinions.

Jake

[Valamir]

I've heard the same comments about Silver.

Universally they're from guys like Evangelista:  Sport fencers and Stage Fencers.  IIRC Evangelista was trained by the guy who trained Errol Flynn how to fence on stage.

These guys have the perception of a continuum:

Cut and Thrust ---> heavy rapier ---> lighter rapier --->small sword

as an evolution from inferior to superior.  Since modern fencing is the sportified version of small sword fighting this bias is understandable, even if wrong.

Once I learned that the real reason for the adoption of the small sword had more to do with social convention than weapon effectiveness I realized that their assumption of: more recently employed must mean superior was way off.

I also suspect that Silver gets a bad rap because his duels would look more like a Tyson fight with head butting and biting than anything Dumas penned.  

Silver's attitude can best be summed up as "If you want to look stylish and impress the ladies, learn the rapier.  If you want to survive a mugging or a tavern brawl, learn to fight for real".

[Jake Norwood]

I've heard the same comments about Silver.

Universally they're from guys like Evangelista:  Sport fencers and Stage Fencers.  IIRC Evangelista was trained by the guy who trained Errol Flynn how to fence on stage.

These guys have the perception of a continuum:

Cut and Thrust ---> heavy rapier ---> lighter rapier --->small sword

as an evolution from inferior to superior.  Since modern fencing is the sportified version of small sword fighting this bias is understandable, even if wrong.

Once I learned that the real reason for the adoption of the small sword had more to do with social convention than weapon effectiveness I realized that their assumption of: more recently employed must mean superior was way off.

I also suspect that Silver gets a bad rap because his duels would look more like a Tyson fight with head butting and biting than anything Dumas penned.  

Silver's attitude can best be summed up as "If you want to look stylish and impress the ladies, learn the rapier.  If you want to survive a mugging or a tavern brawl, learn to fight for real".

Yup, I'll back you on that, Ralph.

Jake

[Lyrax]

Lyrax Lance--I could kick your trash any day with a staff vs. a sword. And you know it. See you at practice saturday.

Yeah, but you don't go all RH on me, either.  I'd honestly like to see you try to kick somebody's butt RH style, because I'm not sure that even you can do it.

And I can kick your trash with a staff vs. sword, too.  That's easy.  A RH staff vs. sword... then you've got an interesting fight.

[Jake Norwood]

Lyrax Lance--I could kick your trash any day with a staff vs. a sword. And you know it. See you at practice saturday.

Yeah, but you don't go all RH on me, either.  I'd honestly like to see you try to kick somebody's butt RH style, because I'm not sure that even you can do it.

And I can kick your trash with a staff vs. sword, too.  That's easy.  A RH staff vs. sword... then you've got an interesting fight.

Okay, I should exercise self-control here, but I'm not going to (yet). I could probably wipe you up "RH style," too, if I could to it full speed and safely (which I can't). However, it's useless making claims about what you could or could not do to a person with a weapon used in a certain style when there's no way to prove it (safely or otherwise). This is definitely the case with your "fight" with Wolfen, so put a sock in it or I will.

As to me RH-ing a staff against you with a sword, I'm sure I could win this one, but it wouldn't be due to the effectiveness of the style, IMO...I'm just a better trained, meaner bastard. Regardless, since we'll probably never know, I'm going to resume my position as moderator and say that while the thread and the topic are still quite open, this Lance vs. Lance buisness is over. Period.

Jake,
who's been training more with the staff lately thanks to this thread.

[svenlein]

who's been training more with the staff lately thanks to this thread.

Yea, that's what I like to here.

Scott