weapon lenght after bash

[Valamir]

I don't know about a special rule being needed.  Seems like an obvious application of the Terrain Rules to me.

Set a difficulty for a Terrain roll, success equals Pike completely useless for attack or defense.

Difficulty would depend on number of pikes faced.

1 Pike...insanely easy.  
2-4 Pikes...still pretty easy, but you need to exersize some caution.
5-10 Pikes...more challenging
etc.

I wouldn't waste effort on a table of modifers or anything.  The situation will demand a lot.  4 Pike man in 2x2 in a narrow hall way is a much different beast from an open field.

Just assign a difficulty and roll.

[Lyrax]

I don't honestly know.  I have to admit that I've never used a pike (closest I've come is a "short" staff), But I would think that even if someone got past the point of a pike, the pikeman would still have the option of choking up and shortening the pike's range.  On the thrust, it would still be just as effective.

[Bob Richter]

I don't honestly know.  I have to admit that I've never used a pike (closest I've come is a "short" staff), But I would think that even if someone got past the point of a pike, the pikeman would still have the option of choking up and shortening the pike's range.  On the thrust, it would still be just as effective.

I've been annoyed for some time that lances and pikes have the same ATN as spears.

The point of a pike is to skewer a guy charging you, or (better yet) to make him not want to.

The point of a lance is to skewer a guy while you're charging.

Neither is designed or built to be used like a spear. Despite structural similarities, I think they should do the spear's job worse, not better, nor even as well.

[Thirsty Viking]

The guy with the dagger gets past the head of the pike without a whole lot of difficulty.  A pike is not a spear.  There is so much leverage at the end of a pike that you are not jabbing it at anyone keeping him at bay.  Having drilled in formation with Pikes you have about half a dozen basic positions.  None of which involve anything like being used against an individual.  Reach is a double edged sword.  More reach = less tip speed.

Lone Pike against dagger looks like this.

Pike guy drops pike and draws a real weapon, or pike guy dies.

Of course formation drill with 18' pikes isn't going to be designed to fight individuals...  it's designed to fight formations.   that doesn't mean that a shorter pike in the hands of a warrior can't effectively fight an individual.  As with swords ...  lengths and tactics change for the situation.   The fact remains that the longer weapon can attack first.   We just went through the whole post on the short staff.  If you follow the links there...  that master was convinced that weapons that were too long  had the advantage over weapons that were too short.   so I guess the reall question is define your pike.   I contest that a pike carried by an individuall, will be shrter than the super long ones carried by mass Close order drill formations.   Also the range of moves available for individual usage  are much greator for pikes of any length (no need to worry about maintaining the formation).   Compare individual sword usages, to shield wall ssword usage.

[svenlein]

I would agree that a shorter weapon (long spear maybe) would be more effective in personal combat than a pike, but I'm talking about the pike, and in the rules a pike should be less effective in one on one combat.

Also Silver doesn't think a "short" staff is the best weapon becuase its longer, its becuase its just the right lenght.  If it was because the short staff is longer then why wouldnt he suggest a 20' pole as superior to the 9' "short" staff?

[Valamir]

There is no such thing really as a short pike, although sometimes the word gets thrown around for convenience.  They come in a variety of lengths, but they are all very long.  Choking up on it merely means you have that much more of the weapon projecting behind you.  Less of a moment arm sure, but more likely to be caught on some object in the way.

I'd still use a Terrain Roll, maneuver the pike wielder so he can't turn to the right any more because the shaft of the pike is hitting an object/person behind him and you have the same ease of getting past it.

There are clearly shorter polearms (bills, forks, glaives...the wealth of weapons found in the AD&D PHB) that are well suited for one on one combat.  The Pike is not one of them.  The Pike is not a one on one weapon...it is a formation weapon, and when not used in formation it is pretty near useless.

[Thirsty Viking]

I would agree that a shorter weapon (long spear maybe) would be more effective in personal combat than a pike, but I'm talking about the pike, and in the rules a pike should be less effective in one on one combat.

Also Silver doesn't think a "short" staff is the best weapon becuase its longer, its becuase its just the right lenght.  If it was because the short staff is longer then why wouldnt he suggest a 20' pole as superior to the 9' "short" staff?

You need to read more of what he wrote,  he specifically address that weapons longer than his optimal short staff have the vantage over weapons shorter than same short staff.   IN other words he says PIKE better than Dagger...  i.e.  he'd rather be the pike man.

Further more,  In ROS Pikes according to the rules start at 14' of length not at 18'  you can ask Jake about this.  They have the same ATN as a long spear, but worse defence.  So in spite of those naysayers out there the longspear has superior stats.   The Fact is that almost all pole arms look pretty much the same if used to stab with.  Its an easy motion, and easily aimed.    The peasant levy was armed with pole-weaqpons because they were Cheap, easily learned, and effective.    

This being said,   The ability to defend is hugely different...  Yes that heavy lance stabs at the same ATN of a Long spear....  the DTN is a 15 for a Heavy Lance, DTN of 9 for pike or light lance, DTN 8 for a Long spear, DTN of 7 for a spear or short staff, and DTN of 6 for a quarterstaff.

think 10 dice,  on defence the Heavy lance has .6, Pike 2, Long Spear 3, Short Staff 4, and quarted staff 5 defensive success.

[Jake Norwood]

Okay...

I'm not an expert on the pike. I've done lots of reading and I've spend a good amount of time with an 8' "spear," but not a pike. My own feeling is that most of what's being said here is right on. The stats for the pike represent what's being said--just try them out. The pike has almost no defensive qualities...2 successes on 10 dice, so to speak.

I'm happy with them the way they are. As one final note, though, I think it would be appropriate for someone doing a full evasion to pay the range penalty if they're inside of a shorter weapon's range--at least in situations like the dagger.

Oh, and I'd put my money on the pike, though if the dagger guy was a vastly superior fighter, I might go with him. "IRL."

Jake

[Thirsty Viking]

ok,  lets set these combat issues aside.  There are good reasons why a pike isn't carried down the street by the average nobleman or man on the street.


The Pike is too long to carry indoors with any reasonable amount of grace unless you have 20' tall doorways.    Thus anytime you went in an average non castle building,  you'd have to leave it behind.  

Walking down the street your average encounter will occur inside the range.  the guy 5 feet away from you drawing his sword doesn't have to close,  you have the range disadvantage.  

Many old streets were narrower than the length of a pike... if you marched with it ready in one direction, your rear was very exposed. Typically advancing with leveled pikes down a street is only done in a war situation...  it's bad for traffic flow in a city.

There are a world of reasons why a Pike is not a good weapon for being carried around town,   none of them have anything to do with the idea that it is hard for a pike to strike a target at it's intended range.

[Bob Richter]

Okay...

I'm not an expert on the pike. I've done lots of reading and I've spend a good amount of time with an 8' "spear," but not a pike. My own feeling is that most of what's being said here is right on. The stats for the pike represent what's being said--just try them out. The pike has almost no defensive qualities...2 successes on 10 dice, so to speak.

I'm happy with them the way they are. As one final note, though, I think it would be appropriate for someone doing a full evasion to pay the range penalty if they're inside of a shorter weapon's range--at least in situations like the dagger.

Oh, and I'd put my money on the pike, though if the dagger guy was a vastly superior fighter, I might go with him. "IRL."

Jake

Problem: Noone *EVER* uses the DTN on a pike. How do you defend in TROS when you have a DTN of 8 or higher? You DODGE. You *ALWAYS* dodge, because there's no benefit in NOT doing so.

The TN of a partial evade is 7, regardless of the weapon you're carrying, with the general effect that DTNs above 7 are meaningless.

Hm. I may have to go out and find or fashion a pike and try it out. See how well it thrusts. I imagine not too well, actually.

[Thirsty Viking]

Problem: Noone *EVER* uses the DTN on a pike. How do you defend in TROS when you have a DTN of 8 or higher? You DODGE. You *ALWAYS* dodge, because there's no benefit in NOT doing so.

The TN of a partial evade is 7, regardless of the weapon you're carrying, with the general effect that DTNs above 7 are meaningless.

Hm. I may have to go out and find or fashion a pike and try it out. See how well it thrusts. I imagine not too well, actually.

Well i haven't heard this addressed...  Hadn't hought of it before...  but I wouldn't give weapon proficiency dice on a CP evasion.  This means for purpose of evasion CP = REFLEX.   Ok unarmed training might get some of thier proficency.  but not all of it.  so having  12 CP dice instead of 6 would have some one parry with 10 dice instead of evade with 5  (assuming they want some for next exchange.

The training with a weapon is to parry, or counter, or block with a shield...   not to jump around like you are unarmed.   Not to mention that Evasion specifically says it leaves your weapon out thier open to attack.  
In other words...  your not using it to defend,  you setting up a counter attack.   But this isn't the Counter Manuver.   The book also says it is DIFFICULT to pull off.
Might have to look at defenders margin of success.  if defenders has a tie or low margin,  a disarm might be an appropriate call on a partial evasion.  True this is a judgement call...   but how effective at a dodge are you going to be dodging if your holding a pole that extends 6 feet beyond your opponent.

Life is always difficult on simple answers....  a little thought reveals possible reasons why *Always* dodge on a DTN above a 7 might not be the right idea.

I'm not saying these are the rules as written, and Jake may not agree with me,  but  I don't see Giving the CP Dice for a weapon Profiecency in an evasion.  Likewise  I'd look at the dice on a % basis.   In other words, if the player has reflex 5 proficency 5,  he is in essence spending 2 CP dice for each 1 in evasion.  3 dice in evasion, uses 6 of his 10 CP. another 2 dice to turn his evasion into an attack on the next exchange,  he attacks with 2d.     Ok it isn't written that way.  But thats how we will be playing it at my table,  because that makes sence to me.  

IMO It should be much easier to parry a sword with a Short Sword than to dodge, assuming you are trained.   Yet the DTN are the same

It just doesn't make sence to me to evade better with a weapon than without...   evasion specificaly says your not using the weapon to defend you are keeping it free to attack on next exchange.


I'm still thinking on this... but it would take some real persuasive discussion to shift me here.

[Mokkurkalfe]

Problem: Noone *EVER* uses the DTN on a pike. How do you defend in TROS when you have a DTN of 8 or higher? You DODGE. You *ALWAYS* dodge, because there's no benefit in NOT doing so.

The TN of a partial evade is 7, regardless of the weapon you're carrying, with the general effect that DTNs above 7 are meaningless.

Hm. I may have to go out and find or fashion a pike and try it out. See how well it thrusts. I imagine not too well, actually.

That's not entirely true...If you succeed with a partial evasion, you have to pay another 2 CP to gain initiative. So in some situation there might be a good idea to parry even with a DTN of 8.

IMO It should be much easier to parry a sword with a Short Sword than to dodge, assuming you are trained. Yet the DTN are the same

For the reason mentioned above, it is easier to parry with a DTN 7 weapon than it is to "evade aggresively"(i.e. taking initiative as well), since the evadíng guy effectively has a 2 dice activation cost.

Well i haven't heard this addressed... Hadn't hought of it before... but I wouldn't give weapon proficiency dice on a CP evasion. This means for purpose of evasion CP = REFLEX. Ok unarmed training might get some of thier proficency. but not all of it. so having 12 CP dice instead of 6 would have some one parry with 10 dice instead of evade with 5 (assuming they want some for next exchange.

Something I thought of as well. You might say the same about terrain rolls and dodging arrows. OTOH, weapon profencies perhaps also represents general reflex and fitness and whatnot(Hey, I'm not the expet here). If you want a guy that's very agile without being a crack-fighter, give him either:
a) A special "acrobatics" or "gymnast" profiency
b) The Brawling/Pugilism profiency
c) A REF of 6-7.
d) Use the acrobatics skill, which gives you 1 extra CP dice for every success in the skill roll when evading.

[Jake Norwood]

I'd handle it differently. I'd say that you're welcome to dodge, but you forfeit any advantage you would have had due to range. Hmm...

Jake

[svenlein]

Jake are you having the idea that if the pike guy successfully dodges the dagger, future exchanges are at the dagger's lenght untill the pike can full evade, or successfully parry?

Scott

[Thirsty Viking]

Problem: Noone *EVER* uses the DTN on a pike. How do you defend in TROS when you have a DTN of 8 or higher? You DODGE. You *ALWAYS* dodge, because there's no benefit in NOT doing so.

The TN of a partial evade is 7, regardless of the weapon you're carrying, with the general effect that DTNs above 7 are meaningless.

Hm. I may have to go out and find or fashion a pike and try it out. See how well it thrusts. I imagine not too well, actually.

That's not entirely true...If you succeed with a partial evasion, you have to pay another 2 CP to gain initiative. So in some situation there might be a good idea to parry even with a DTN of 8.

Even so,  to parry and take initiative on the next exchange costs you 6cp and it is a CONTESTED roll  This is costing 2CP and it is AUTOMATIC

IMO It should be much easier to parry a sword with a Short Sword than to dodge, assuming you are trained. Yet the DTN are the same

For the reason mentioned above, it is easier to parry with a DTN 7 weapon than it is to "evade aggresively"(i.e. taking initiative as well), since the evadíng guy effectively has a 2 dice activation cost.

As you said the same reasons as above.  You are trading less than one success  for automaticly siezing the initiative on a successful evasion.  It is in no way much easier to parry because You are not required to pay these costs in order to dodge.  You are allowed to dodge with the same # of dice.

Well i haven't heard this addressed... Hadn't hought of it before... but I wouldn't give weapon proficiency dice on a CP evasion. This means for purpose of evasion CP = REFLEX. Ok unarmed training might get some of thier proficency. but not all of it. so having 12 CP dice instead of 6 would have some one parry with 10 dice instead of evade with 5 (assuming they want some for next exchange.

Something I thought of as well. You might say the same about terrain rolls and dodging arrows.

I don't have too,  the Rule book specifically says that dodging outside of hand to hand is strictly REFLEX

b) The Brawling/Pugilism profiency

OTOH, weapon profencies perhaps also represents general reflex and fitness and whatnot

In the system REFLEX is an attribute for the agility and Wit of a charachter.  these get raised seperately from weapon proficency.  Ok the book distingushes these.   I said I'd consider allowing some of the Pugilism to apply.    I'm thinking maybe 1/2.   since this defaults off of almost every weapon skill.   All pc's  would dodge at slightly better than thier reflex.   Weapon-masters   Profiecency 15+,   would typically be able to use this against starting charachters. fairly easily.  Imagine the instructor sidestepping the sword thrust, and rapping the charachters on the knuckles with a baton saying,  your over extending again.

so propperly amended the above example becomes

For purpose of evasion CP = REFLEX + 1/2 pugilism.
So a warrior with reflex 5  Cut & thrust 6  would have  default pugilism of 4.   therefore he'd have 7 CP for his evasion or 11 CP to parry  Even if you decide to not penalize the 4 dice and allow them to be used on the second exchange ...  He is now rolling 5 dice to evade TN 7  (2.0 success AVE)  if he wants to sieve initiative and I'd make him declare and spend those dice up front like a counter.  if he gets hit while dodging, they are gone.   If he decides to dodge without taking initiative next exchange he can spend the 7 dice,  (2.8 average success)  However on the second exchange I'd not allow a partial evasion again if he'd spent all his evasion dice the first exchange.