weapon lenght after bash

[svenlein]

Lets say i'm fighting someone with a greatsword, I bash it successfully, does his weapon lenght become 0?

Scott

[Lyrax]

Normally, you'd use the 'bash' maneuver on a *person* because it's just like a cut or a thrust.  Bashing a weapon would be a 'beat' maneuver.  See the rules for that.

[Jake Norwood]

Lets say i'm fighting someone with a greatsword, I bash it successfully, does his weapon lenght become 0?

Scott

Assuming you meant the "beat" maneuver, his weapon range stays the same, but the bonus goes to you instead of to him following your first hit. For the sake of that first hit, you still have to overcome his range, but the bonus dice from the beat should help with that.

Jake

[svenlein]

So a successful beat is enough to close range?

[Thirsty Viking]

no
a beat doesn't close range,  it Takes Penalty dice from the defender and on the next attack his weapon can't parry or block or counter.

[svenlein]

ok, i am try to represent a guy with a dagger fighting an unarmored guy with a pike, where the guy with the dagger hits the pike with his shield and closes, I thought "beat" would represent this, but it doesnt, since you need to hit after you beat inorder to close, which is almost impossible in this situation.

Scott

[Vanguard]

Hmm,surely it does though?

If it's to slap an opponent's pike away with ur dagger to close in, then a  successful beat grants that much more of an advantage in scoring a hit on the next round and thus negating the opponent's reach bonus. I am right no?

And if it's to bash an opponent's pike away with ur shield, and close in, then this is established through bind & strike. Having successfully bound the pike, it is out of use for the next round and as such has, again, lost any reach bonus for the pike.

Right?

[Thirsty Viking]

Lets face it.   the only easy solutions for a dagger against a pike,  are to throw it from outside melee range. or to close the distance by stealth and attack by surprise.

Assuming equal CP  the Pike wielder will defeat the dagger guy in pure melee starting at range the vast majority of the time, if played well.

[Lyrax]

what do you mean, if played well?  All he's got to do is stab the guy with a full CP (minus a few for emergency), since no GM in their right (or left) mind would allow a double kill in that situation (unless the dagger was thrown... different story).

Anyway, I think he can win even if he doesn't play well.  If the pikeman plays horribly and rolls worse, then the dagger dude has a chance at doing something.

[Thirsty Viking]

Thats what i meant..   played well pike vs dagger is attack with ~80% of dice the fist exchange from an offensive posture.  

IMO dagger played well vs pike =  RUN AWAY!  (ambush and missle excluded)

Typical result,   dagger guy throwing everything he has into parry,  or dropping dead on a simultaneous attack unless he kills you with initiative.

Thowing defensive dice against a dagger,   drops odds close to even if dagger dude attacks with abandon.   Pikes defend poorly.

[svenlein]

Lets face it.   the only easy solutions for a dagger against a pike,  are to throw it from outside melee range. or to close the distance by stealth and attack by surprise.

Assuming equal CP  the Pike wielder will defeat the dagger guy in pure melee starting at range the vast majority of the time, if played well.

I think in a real fight between a guy with dagger and shield vs guy with pike.  If the dagger guy can get within 8' of the enemy he will have a large advantage, but in tros he need to make a successful attack before he gets the advantage.

Remember Long pikes where not that usefull when used alone suposedly, they were useful in formation when people behind you could handle enemy who got within your range.

Currently the ubiquitous "drop the pike and pull out a short sword" will never happen in TROS because the pike guy can always full evade and get back to full range.

[Bob McNamee]

If you were the Pikeman and your opponent was the Daggerman... would you want it any other way?

I'd sure be upset that I couldn't hold one off and gut him...
 but if he got really lucky, used terrain or whatever and got inside...I should be in a world of hurt.

I know if it was the real world, and all I had was a knife against a trained Pikeman, one on one, I'd run. Or maybe try for a lucky thrown attack.
 
Seems to me like TROS is all about killing folks who insist on "Lets attack against all sense..."

A successfull hit, whether it does damage or not, would indicate that you have gotten inside the guard/weapon length of the pikeman. Including, a double hit situation, if the Daggerman was not killed, he would be at Dagger range. He was just struck as he closed and struck the Pikeman... but maybe I've got it wrong.

Bob McNamee

[svenlein]

I would suggest that an 18' pole is going to be a very difficult weopon to use with out support from other swordmen.

Jake or someone who does real fighting, could you see how fighting with an 18'+ pike vs a guy with a shield and dagger works out?

Thanks,

Scott

[Valamir]

The guy with the dagger gets past the head of the pike without a whole lot of difficulty.  A pike is not a spear.  There is so much leverage at the end of a pike that you are not jabbing it at anyone keeping him at bay.  Having drilled in formation with Pikes you have about half a dozen basic positions.  None of which involve anything like being used against an individual.  Reach is a double edged sword.  More reach = less tip speed.

Lone Pike against dagger looks like this.

Pike guy drops pike and draws a real weapon, or pike guy dies.

[Mokkurkalfe]

It seems like some special rules for Extr. long weapons are needed.