gods & demons & group binding

[Bailywolf]

I've recently been thinking about Zelazny's Amber books.  Amber's Pattern can be thought of- in pretty clear terms- as a sorcerer-style demon.  It is intelligent, clearly has a Desire (to spread order) though a Need is a bit trickier.  But VASTLY more powerful than anything on the scale of a typical demon.  

It can be though of as being Bound to those with the Blood of Amber (who are kin to its creator)... and perhaps when such a person is initiated into it he picks up a spawned parasite which grants Travel + transport powers...  Also, the Blood to which it is bound (and in which it was drawn) can be used to Punish or even Banish it...


But more generalized.  Especialy for some sorc&sword games, has anyone considered things like multi-party bindings?  Especialy as they might relate to god-like demons?

A cult of Baal Rafesh worships a great serpent-demon who lives in a pit beneath their temple.  The thing desires worship, it needs human sacrifice.  It is Bound to the cult, but to no specific member of the cult.  Cult members with proper understanding (Lore) can comand the demon-god and call upon its powers...so long as it stays happy.  

Such a Binding would apply to a cult or church or bloodline rahter than to any one individual... groups of cultists could enter into the binding relationship with a huge demon thing (power 15+)... and of course the Demon is going to be playing the cultists off against each other...

This structure might make for a cool group dynamic as well... the thread connecting all the characters is the common Binding shared over a given mega-demon... and such characters could all bear the same telltale as a result (the same ritual brand on their palms... the same scaly patches on their backs... the same luminous hint in their eyes...the same aversion to bright light...).  

The system for cooperative sorcery is already in place (and no Sorcerer group should ignore it)...but as I understand it, Binding typicaly aplies to a single individual and a single demon.

This arangement alters the thematics a bit... but also offers some neat avenues for exploration, as each member of the binding experiences the same thing from a differing angle.

Anyone play with this at all?

[Valamir]

I agree with the concept, but I think I'd disagree with the terminology.  

Specifically that the demon is bound to the organization and not to the individual.  Quite to the contrary...I think the initiation rites of the religion are themselves the individual binding.  What I really think you're doing is allowing mulitple people to bind to the same demon but its a direct binding not an indirect one through the organization.

Ron has something similiar to this in the Lincoln High Demo.

Theres a great  (read sick and twisted) summoning and binding scene in one of the Terry Goodkind Sword of Truth novels (I forget which, 2nd or 3rd I think), involving a summoned demonic servant of the Keeper and a very Stamina based binding ritual.  All the members of the "coven" were bound to this same demon in the same way.

[Bailywolf]

Ah yes, I see the distinction... a new High Priest is chosen, and he must undergo a higher-order initiation to his patron demon-god... esentialy moving from someone with Lore who can Command the demon, to someone with an actual Binding...

I also had an idea which may resonate with Ron's new thematic slant for the 3rd suplement- the Marrige Summoning.  When creating some weird cultures for my dreamlands game, I came up with a tribe of witch-folk who all possess some measure of sorcerous power (almost entirely Lore 1, but with some higher).  When a couple is to marry, they cooperatively contact and summon a demon together and bind it together.  The demon then serves the household as a sort of genis loci or hearth god.  It protects the family and household in exchange for the family catering to its Need.  When the children reach their majority, part of their coming of age ceremony is to summon their own Familiar- their first and most loyal demon.  In this way, the witch-folk live side by side with their demons, sharing their relationships and households with them.

One thing I want to explore with the witch-folk is how a society in which sorcery is the norm would define transgression.  I think perhaps a rift between collective occult activity and individual pursuit of power.  Demons summoned as part of a household or to sanctify bonds of marrige or political alliances vs demons summoned selfishly by individuals in the persuit of advantage over others.  Magic within the context of the culture's social occultism vs magic of the loner, the rebel, the outlaw...

[greyorm]

Baily,

Do a search on this idea and you'll find my ideas on how I would handle gods, priests and apparent multi-sorcerer demons -- without the necessity for new mechanics or anything of the sort.

The short explanation is that the demon is not Bound to the Sorcerer via the Binding, the Sorcerer is Bound to the demon. Functionally, such scenarios are exactly the same.

[Valamir]

Good point Raven.  Mechanically you are absolutely right.  Functionally identical.  Whether the Sorcerer has bound multiple demons, or the demon has bound multiple Sorcerers...mechanically it still results in a +/- binding strength.

It is, however,  a subtle but significant altering of Sorcerers central conceit but I think it works well for certain settings...and perhaps better portrays the "sell your soul" to a known higher power type of situation.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi there,

Speaking as the non-pervy by-the-book Sorcerer purist for a moment, I've yet to see any reason to violate the one-demon-one-sorcerer Binding rules. That is to say, a demon may be Bound only to one sorcerer, although a sorcerer may Bind many demons.

The exceptions that people are about to hurl at the thread seem to me (in anticipation) to be Pacts, not Binding, most especially all the Satan/Soul stories. Pacts are different; a demon can make Pacts left and right and all over the place.

Best,
Ron

[talysman]

Speaking as the non-pervy by-the-book Sorcerer purist for a moment, I've yet to see any reason to violate the one-demon-one-sorcerer Binding rules. That is to say, a demon may be Bound only to one sorcerer, although a sorcerer may Bind many demons.

The exceptions that people are about to hurl at the thread seem to me (in anticipation) to be Pacts, not Binding, most especially all the Satan/Soul stories. Pacts are different; a demon can make Pacts left and right and all over the place.

well, there would still need to be at least one sorcerer bound to the demon, because of the rule about unbound demons losing power and eventually being banished. perhaps the high priest, as suggested above.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi John,

Yeah, it could be the high priest ... or to be really nasty, the Binder could potentially change sequentially, so that if a "next recruit" happens to land more victories on the Binding roll, then he's the Binder. Of course, no one is good enough in Lore to grok this quite well, so everyone thinks "we" Bind the demon and just include each new recruit as we go ... but in actuality, the demon is switching masters. It could lead to some very odd shifts in demon behavior, don't you think?

Best,
Ron

[Bailywolf]

Ron & John..


Yes, me likes!  A nice setup... the High Priest is actualy has the binding to the demon- he is its 'anchor' and may have more influence on it than others in his cult.  The next tier of cultists have their own sorcerous ability & Lore (and perhaps their own cadre of personal demonic servents) and they are free to Pact personaly with the Big Demon God (can a bound demon still pact?????)... imagine the religious politics in that situation, eh?  To assume the HP's position, you first have to get enough support among your fellow priests so that your cabal with support you when you go for the Binding yourself, and then you have to somehow get the HP to break his binding (or you have to usurp it from him)... .

Another way to do the one-demon-many-bindings without altering the rules one whit is to simply rule that all the demons summoned and bound by sorcerers of a given cult are in fact simply aspects, avatars, or fragments of the greater god-demon.  Mechanicaly,  the demons work as normal, but Desire & Need will reflect their connection to the god.  This works very well for paladin type holy warriors who are invested with their patron god's powers in a limited fashion.  While a full sorcerer-priest may invoke his diety or its servitors.  In this scheme, capturing the flair I'm looking for is just a matter of describing something like the schools of sorcery in the Sorcerer MRB for a given cult.