Quick Complication question

[ejh]

OK, trying to understand the rules here...

Basic rules:

1. Complication with two Targets, therefore a total of three Dice Pools.
The Targets win, the Complication does not succeed in
opposing/modifying/doing whatever to them.  (According to the basic
rules, the targets as a *whole* roll against the Originator as a
*whole*).

So who gets winners' coins?  All of the targets?  So there can be
multiple winners, as long as they are all Targets?

2. Do people get any reward for merely contributing to a pool, or is
that something to do just for fun?

[J B Bell]

I ain't the designer, but, the way I play it is that the winners get Coins back according to how their individual pools rolled.  Then they narrate from the winningest on down.  I.e., while your pools combine for purposes of winning or losing, you do not roll them in one combined pile.

The basic principle is, anyone buying dice, with Traits or Coins, is buying a chance to affect the narrative.  (Narration?  Argh, been reading a lot of theory on here lately.)  They get the reward of their own dice (including the Coins one gets for losing).

--JB

[Valamir]

Exactly right JB.  There are only 2 SIDES to the Complication, but there can be multiple pools.  In theory there could be multiple pools on the Originators side as well as on the Target's side but that's not as common.

Each pool is rolled seperately, adds its successes to one or the other side to determine which side wins, than each pool is evaluated seperately (as a member of the overall winning/losing side) for purposes of Coins received and narration order.

[ejh]

Exactly right JB.  There are only 2 SIDES to the
Complication, but there can be multiple pools.  In theory there could be
multiple pools on the Originators side as well as on the Target's side
but that's not as common.

Each pool is rolled seperately, adds its successes to one or the other
side to determine which side wins, than each pool is evaluated
seperately (as a member of the overall winning/losing side) for purposes
of Coins received and narration order.

Huh.  Makes sense -- but you'll need to spell that out more clearly in
the next edition of the rules.

I would not have guessed that -- and I'm still kind of iffy about the
implications -- for example, let's say Count Schmooko is fighting three
two-bit no-screen-time Jedi.  Each is Controlled by a separate player,
so there are three Targets.  The Count gets 8 successes, and they each
get 7.  Overwhelming victory for the Jedi's *side*, and yet, the Count's
player had a winning *pool*.

Does this mean that the player who Controls the Count gets to narrate
what happens (winning Pool), but that he has to narrate the Count
completely failing to kick the ass of the Jedi (because he was on the
losing Side)?

[Valamir]

I'm not sure what you mean.  Check the 2nd and 3rd paragraph on page 67.

The Originator will roll all of the dice in the Complication Dice Pool and control any Coins generated from the roll.  Each player who has a Component that he Controls Targeted by the Complication will have his own Dice Pool.
   In the Core rules, there are only two sides in a Complication.  The Complication itself, and the Target's collectively.  The rolls of all of the Target Pools are counted together (as one big Pool) to determine the winning side  of the roll (either the Targets win or the Complication wins).  They are counted separately for purposes of spending the Coins generated (with each rolling player spending the results of his own Pool).

So in answer to your question.  The 3 Jedi collectively have 21 Successes to Schmooko's 8.  That means the Target Side won.  All of the Jedi calculate the number of Coins they get as winners, Schmooko calculates the number of Coins he gets as a loser.

[Bob McNamee]

Example-

Count Schmooko is fighting three two-bit no-screen time Jedi (Jedi #1,Jedi #2, and Jedi #3)

They roll for the complication 10 dice for the Count, and 8 dice for each Jedi (each controlled by a different player)

(they all roll amazingly well!)

Originator Side rolls...
Count Schmooko gets 1,1,2,2,3,3,4,5,9,10
for 8 successes out of 10 dice

Target Side Rolls...
Jedi #1 gets 1,1,2,2,3,4,5,9
for 7 successes

Jedi #2 gets 1,2,2,3,3,4,5,10
for 7 successes

Jedi #3 gets 1,2,3,4,4,5,5,7
for 7 successes

Originator side 8 successes
Target side 21 successes

Target side wins!
Originator side loses...

Target side gets Coins as follows
Jedi #1 = 18 Coins
Jedi #2 = 20 Coins
Jedi #3 = 24 Coins

Originator Side gets Coins as follows
Count = 10 Coins
.....................................................................
now if the Count was smart he would have found a way to attack only one Jedi (say Jedi #1)

then he would have won (8 successes to 7 successes) ...
Count =  21 Coins

and Jedi #1 would have lost with...
Jedi #1 = 8 Coins

[ejh]

OK, I saw that bit on p. 67.  I was confused, I guess, by e.g. the
sidebar on page 69, which speaks as if there are only two people
involved in a complication, a Winner and a Loser, when in fact, as I
understand now, there may be several Winners (if there are multiple
Targets and the Targets win) or several Losers (if the reverse is true.)

The winner, it says, goes first narrating the results, and then the
Loser.  What if there is more than one winner?  More than one loser?
Then do they go in order of how many dice they had in their pools?  How
many successes?  How many bonus Coins they got?

Or do they have to somehow cooperate?

Or do they each get to narrate the way *their controlled components*
deal with the complication, and not the other people's?  (That makes
sense, but order amongst them might still be an issue -- after all, it
might matter a lot which jedi offed Schmooku.)

[ejh]

Sorry, Valamir, you may have answered my question already...  In a
message above you said that things are resolved amongs the participants
of each side to determine coins received and narration order -- I assume
this means that you simply go in order of individual successes.

I guess this leaves open the question of what happens when people within
a side have tied pools -- what happens, rerolling with edge dice?  And
if so, is it the results of the *reroll* which are totted up to
determine which Side wins or loses?

I guess the example I gave might illustrate this -- Jedi 1, 2, and 3 all
tied for successes... is it reroll time?

It seems silly rerolling against people you're fighting on the same side
with, but how else to determine who narrates first?

[Paganini]

In the IRC game we did it like this:

First the winners narrate, in order of victory coins, highest to lowest. Then the loser(s) narrate. I don't know what you'd do if the number of coins were tied. Flip a coin or something would be my vote. :)

[Bob McNamee]

or go clockwise around table...
have a roll off...
or whatever...

[Valamir]

That is a little confusing.  There is a spot in the rules which identify that multiple losing pools go in order of most ot least Coins (not Dice) but it does not mention doing the same for multiple winning pools (which it should).  Ties would be broken by the default Universalis determinate, clockwise order (or whatever substitute for clockwise one is using for internet play)

[ejh]

That is a little confusing.  There is a spot in the
rules which identify that multiple losing pools go in order of most ot
least Coins (not Dice) but it does not mention doing the same for
multiple winning pools (which it should).  Ties would be broken by the
default Universalis determinate, clockwise order (or whatever substitute
for clockwise one is using for internet play)

OK, that's good.  I think it was the section you're mentioning here that
began my confusion -- thinking that there always had to be one Winner
and perhaps multiple Losers, because of the language in the rulebook,
got me to thinking some of the strange things that appear earlier in
this thread. :)