CHARNEL GODS....MMM, TASTY!!!

[Spooky Fanboy]

Got Charnel Gods very recently. Love it, especially the idea that the user of the Fell Weapons ends up being the one who heralds the end of the world.

Had an idea, was wondering if Scott or anyone familiar with the game would care to discuss. Basically, the Fell Weapons were only able to be brought into being because they combined pieces of Nameless One and Old God, held together by the base desires of the Old Gods. Thus, they are highly destructive, but they are also divine in nature. I plan to model this by the following in-game mechanic: If the bearer of a Fell Weapon kicks his/her Humanity over 5, he may roll Humanity vs the Will of hostile Ancients or low-level Nameless One-spawn to drive the creature back or, if the creature pesists in attacking, inflict Special Non-Lethal damage on it.

Full-fledged Nameless Ones will not be driven back by the high-Humanity aura of the Weapon-bearer, but the Weapon-bearer will have an extra pool of 5 dice per level in Humanity when in direct combat with a full-blown Nameless One, thus being able to go head-to-head with Nameless Ones and any minions stupid enough to get between them.

Any thoughts?

[Ron Edwards]

Hi there,

I think it's a neat idea, but I'd remove the 5-Humanity minimum. Anyone with a Fell Weapon can try it. I think that letting Humanity operate as its own control mechanism is very effective in Sorcerer, without too many needs for minima for things.

Best,
Ron

[hardcoremoose]

Hey Spooky,

5+ Humanity?  Never heard of such a thing.  ;)

Seriously, thanks for picking up Charnel Gods, and thanks for taking the time to post some new ideas.  It gives me a chance to talk about the game, and that makes me a bit giddy.

To reveal a bit of the design process, and what was going on in my head when I wrote the thing, I deliberately attempted to confound the mythology of the Fell Weapons, to leave the players wondering whether they really were the creation of the Old Gods, or something else entirely.  Even the game mechanics seem to contradict the stated cosmology of the setting, and that confusion was intentional on my part.  So to assign the Fell Weapons a mystical ability to drive back the Nameless and the Ancients...well, that to me seems like a validation the myths, and leaves the players with a little less wondering and a little more certainty about what it is that is really going on.

And it makes the Fell Weapons seem kind of nice.  Almost pleasant, even.

On the other hand, I could see where it presents an interesting conflict.  Especially if, as you suggest, the ability only kicks in at a certain Humanity level.  If your Humanity is high, you become a sort of highly effective holy defender of the world, driving back the enemy where you find it.  Let it drop too low, and civilization is offered up as the sacrifice to prevent an even worse outcome.  It's like two paths to the same outcome, and from the Weapons' point of view, either might be acceptable, although one is certainly preferred over the other as a better long-term solution (hence their nasty Desires).

Now here's something I'm curious about:  Do you own Sorcerer & Sword (which includes the rules for Pacting)?  The reason I ask is because Ancients share no real relationship with Nameless Ones, and no relationship with the Fell Weapons (in fact, they're older than the Fell Weapons, according to the game's mythology).  As such, they can be Pacted with, which makes all of them potential allies (or at the very least, one could drive them away with a quick command).  How does this revelation (if it is a revelation, which it probably isn't) impact how you envision interactions with the Ancients?

I look forward to hearing more.

Take care,
Scott

[Spooky Fanboy]

Oops. To clarify myself (or maybe I did type this and didn't mean to: I wasn't thinking about a minimum for Humanity necessary to activate the aura. As Ron pointed out, Humanity has enough on it's shoulders in this game without dumping anymore. So, I revise: no minimum requirement to activate the Aura.

Scott: Sorry, I thought the Ancients *were* part and parcel of the Nameless faction. That some can be allies as well never occured to me. In any event, I meant that the Humanity Aura should affect those Ancients aligned to the Nameless, as well as lesser Nameless. Greater Nameless can blow off the aura no sweat, but find much to their shock that their opponent can put up one hell of a fight, and is not likely to run screaming away in fear.

But I do think it feels right, somehow, that the Fell Weapons are both divine and Nameless in origin. I also think it adds nicely to the dilemma of divesting oneself from the Weapon: even if it is corrupting and dangerous, if it's humanity's only hope, can you afford the moral luxury of getting rid of it? And since it doesn't really step up the bearer's effectiveness that much against  a full-blown Nameless, it's an additional incentive for the players to stick together.

Just some ideas.

[hardcoremoose]

Hey Spooky,

I had a nice reply all ready to post last night, but then I lost the damn thing when The Forge crashed.  Note to self: Always compose replies in wordpad or something, even very short ones.

Anyway, here's the gist of what I wanted to say.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what you might be looking for is more of a stand up fight.  As it stands now, the heroes - powerful as they may be - are pretty paltry when compared to some of the Nameless (who sometimes have Scores in the 50+ range).  Fortunately, encounters with them are rare.

That's all by design, of course.  Charnel Gods is for more influneced by Elric than it is Conan.  Heroism isn't presumed.  There's no cosmic edict which makes the player characters heroes (although it almost seems like there is).  It has to be a deliberate choice, and it's a hard path to follow.  Being the antihero is far easier.

But nothing you suggest necessarily rules that out.  Heroism is still going to be hard to achieve, there's just going to be more incentive to make that choice.  I guess you'll have to try it out and let me know how it goes.

As for the actual mechanics changes you suggest, you'll have to be careful when balancing encounters and whatnot.  Giving the already powerful player characters extra dice when combating Nameless means that an encounter with them might be less threatening (and less interesting) than an encounter with a Bygone or another sorcerer.  And I wouldn't extend any of the Weapons' abilities to influence things like Ancients; the Weapons weren't meant for them, and while a certain amount of fear and awe accompanies their use (see Balberith's reaction when he sees Noc Tis, Chapter Three of the PDF), I'm not sure formalizing a power as such makes a lot of thematic sense (and besides, Pacting is a lot of fun, and that's what it's meant to do).

Of course, these are just my thoughts.  Ultimately it's your game, and I'll be your best friend if you actually play it.

- Scott

[Spooky Fanboy]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what you might be looking for is more of a stand up fight.  As it stands now, the heroes - powerful as they may be - are pretty paltry when compared to some of the Nameless (who sometimes have Scores in the 50+ range).  Fortunately, encounters with them are rare.

That's all by design, of course.  Charnel Gods is for more influneced by Elric than it is Conan.  Heroism isn't presumed.  There's no cosmic edict which makes the player characters heroes (although it almost seems like there is).  It has to be a deliberate choice, and it's a hard path to follow.  Being the antihero is far easier.

But nothing you suggest necessarily rules that out.  Heroism is still going to be hard to achieve, there's just going to be more incentive to make that choice.  I guess you'll have to try it out and let me know how it goes.

As for the actual mechanics changes you suggest, you'll have to be careful when balancing encounters and whatnot.  Giving the already powerful player characters extra dice when combating Nameless means that an encounter with them might be less threatening (and less interesting) than an encounter with a Bygone or another sorcerer.  And I wouldn't extend any of the Weapons' abilities to influence things like Ancients; the Weapons weren't meant for them, and while a certain amount of fear and awe accompanies their use (see Balberith's reaction when he sees Noc Tis, Chapter Three of the PDF), I'm not sure formalizing a power as such makes a lot of thematic sense (and besides, Pacting is a lot of fun, and that's what it's meant to do).

Right on the nailhead!

See, I've been reading a lot of James V. Clemens "Wit'ch" series, and I'm feeling more in a Conan pulp-fantasy frame of mind than an Elric frame of mind. I'm envisioning a world of Ancients who are neutral, but can be Pacted with, Ancients who are eager to Pact with someone to fight the Nameless Horrors, and some Ancients who have been corrupted by the Nameless, mutated into something unwholesome. Normal, everyday people are, of course, also candidates for this polarization.

I recognize the impulse to play the anti-hero, but it seems like overkill to me, especially since the setting is already so bleak. If I want anti-heroism, I can play Dying Earth, or a modified Eldritch Ass-Kicking, to slake my thirst for cynical commentary on the human condition. In this game, I'd like to encourage heroism and last-stands, as it seems appealing to me what the paladin-like characters will do with the enemies inside them (the Fell Weapons) and outside (the Nameless and their twisted allies) dogging them constantly, with no one else to share their burden with except those like them who've cast aside personal happiness to save the world from unravelling, with no glamorous reward (likely) awaiting them at the end of it all. That's heroism, and that's what I'm after.

I agree that allied and neutral Ancients or Bygones should be Pacted with, and not subject to the boost against the Nameless Ones. Corrupted Ancients and Bygones, however, should be fair game.

[hardcoremoose]

Hey there Spooky,

Nice post.

It's a difficult thing to convince a creator that his game would be better used in some way other than he envisioned it.  You know how egos are.  But it seems like you have a real clear idea of what you want to do, and if Charnel Gods helps with that, I'm all for it.  Sorcerer & Sword is fantastic and people should be playing it.

With that said, what else can we talk about here?  Will you be prepping a game soon?  Will you be using the Epoch rules, and if so, do you have any broad-stroke ideas for what your Epoch would be like?  

- Scott

[Spooky Fanboy]

It's a difficult thing to convince a creator that his game would be better used in some way other than he envisioned it.  You know how egos are.

Which is why I wouldn't dream of any such thing. ;-) I just state my preferences, based on my mood, which right now wants to embrace the heroic despite impossible odds. Who knows, but that I'll change my mind a few months from now? I don't! I like Elric and his world as much as the next gamer-geek. %-)

With that said, what else can we talk about here?  Will you be prepping a game soon?  Will you be using the Epoch rules, and if so, do you have any broad-stroke ideas for what your Epoch would be like?

I believe a fine mix of the Romanesque Epoch and the Rennaisance Italy Epoch, with, as I mentioned in my last post, a bit of the Wit'ch War novels thrown in for seasoning. As to whether or not this becomes an actual game depends upon the bravery of the few trustworthy and mature souls I'm in contact with in the local circle of gamers.

I'l keep both the Psychotic emperor and the back-stabbing Magisters, all oblivious to the world around them as politics upstages immanent apocalypse. Sorcerors (or, as I'm calling them in-game "Omen-bearers" or simply "Bearers") are sent out into the Carrion Fields to bring back the Fell Weapons "for the glory of (Salea or whatever name I come up with)."
The Sorcerors, equipped with varying Lore, are somewhat aware of what's happening, but may not care(!) or feel powerless to do anything about it, or may desert the city's Honor Guard to halt the End, or may take over the city and establish martial law so that they have resources to fight the Nameless Ones.  I'll have it in my game that the Fell Weapons are only fated to resurface if the Nameless Ones are close to another breakthrough, so that should light a fire under the player's asses. I'll also have Bygones and Ancients who are neutral, pro-Elder Gods, or corrupted by the Nameless Ones, some of which might stick in a hand in the political tensions of the city if the players dilly-dally a little too long.

Should be fun! [/quote]