Quick summoning question

[Uncle Dark]

Is it possible to summon a bound demon?

In one game I ran, the  players decided to summon a bound demon (who had outlived his master) and re-bind him.  I allowed it, as they were really into the scene.  But I'm wondering about it...  Because, to be fair, the bad guys could summon thier demons away from them (or, seeing as I'm playing under one of the players from that game, my demon could be summoned away from me.

Given that it was the last session of that game, I'm not too worried.  But is it a good idea to allow, in general?  Opinions?

[greyorm]

If the master is dead, the demon isn't Bound anymore.

If the master is still alive, then you need to break the Binding first, by Binding it to yourself (the current Binding strength serves as a modifier to this attempt).

As to the exact order or methodology of such an attempt where the demon isn't local to you (and hence needs to be summoned), I'll let Ron answer that one.

I think it depends on what "Summoning" means in your game...is it bringing the thing to you from somewhere/place else? Or is it allowing the creature to physically manifest in the world for a short period (with the Binding making it permanent)?

In the latter case, my answer would be "No"...you can't summon any demon that's already been summoned. In the former case, I'd say "yes, you can;" but again, the attempt would be modified by the strength of the existing Binding.

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

Lon, I think a lot of people forget that Bound vs. Unbound has nothing to do with Here vs. Not-Here.

Summoning brings a demon from Not-Here to Here. It's independent of whether a demon is Bound.

Some scenarios to ponder:

1) The demon is Not-Here and Unbound. It is Summoned, arriving Here. It is then Bound. It breaks the Binding for some reason or another and remains Here.

2) The demon is Here and Bound. Someone Banishes it, sending it Not-Here. It remains Bound. Someone else Summons it, and when it arrives Here, it is still Bound.

3) The demon is Here and Unbound. Someone Banishes it, sending it Not-Here. It's now in the same condition as the demon beginning in #1.

Another thing to consider in the light of these two variables is when a demon may be killed - killing an Unbound demon simply Banishes it; killing a Bound demon really kills it. Also, and on a related note, the death of the person who Bound the demon does not break the Binding.

Best,
Ron

[Uncle Dark]

Ron,

Interesting.  I hadn't thought of demons being banished but still bound.  My thinking was along these lines:

Summoning brings a demon Here.  Binding keeps it Here.  Banishing sends it back There, breaking what kept it Here in the process.

Thinking of Here/There and Bound/Unbound as entirely seperate variables gives me something more to ponder...

Thanks,

Lon

[Mike Holmes]

If the master is dead, the demon isn't Bound anymore.

From what I understand that's not the standard rule. I could definitely see it being played that way in some versions, but my understanding is that a binding remains after a charcter's death, unless something else happens to remove it.

Do I have that right, Ron?

Mike

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

Mike's right. Raven, you're making the same mistake with Binding and Binding-death as Lon is making with Binding and Banishing.

I hope my previous post cleared these issues up for everyone.

Best,
Ron

[greyorm]

You're both right (well, of course Ron is, it's his game!). I realized I was thinking of the "master dies...demon's Need goes unmet" bit and confused it with Binding. My (very) bad.

[jburneko]

Huh, I didn't know that when you Banish a demon it remained Bound.  So question.  If my demon is banished, do I get the binding strength (in whose favor?) as a bonus if I attempt to re-contact and re-summon my demon?

Also, if banishing doesn't unbind a demon, then um, how do you unbind a demon?

Jesse

[Valamir]

If I remember correctly the whole premise of the possessed house sample adventure in the rule book is that of a bound demon who remains bound after its master died.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi there,

Jesse,
"If my demon is banished, do I get the binding strength (in whose favor?) as a bonus if I attempt to re-contact and re-summon my demon?"

The Binding strength acts as a bonus both for the re-Contacting and the re-Summoning, in the sorcerer's favor. Think of it as a "reality anchor" for the demon. It's the same reason that any demon's Binding strength acts as a bonus to it (again, regardless of whose favor it's in) when resisting Banishing.

"Also, if banishing doesn't unbind a demon, then um, how do you unbind a demon?"

Basically, the only way for a demon to become un-Bound is for it to rebel successfully. But don't confuse this - disobeying is one thing; it means the demon refuses an order, but it doesn't mean the Binding is broken. But rebelling means the demon is deliberately breaking the Binding; it rolls Will vs. Will, with the Binding strength applying as per normal (whoever has the upper hand). If successful, the demon is now un-Bound.

If your sorcerer character wants to Bind another sorcerer's Bound demon, then what he has to do is convince the demon to rebel against the primary Binding. Unless this happens, any attempt at a second Binding is just a bunch of chanting.

Best,
Ron

[Mike Holmes]

So, if a sorcerer dies, I assume that many (depending on the definition) will try to break the binding at some point so that they can bound again. OTOH, I suppose that some demons prefer not to be bound, and, as such, will keep the binding so as to not be bindable in the future.

I mean that assuming that the demon wants to be bound, it will break the binding with a dead Sorcerer. If it does not want to be bound it will not break the binding so it can serve to protect the demon from that happening. Does that make sense?

So the house demon in the scenario from the book would presumably be the latter sort.

Mike

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Mike,

The following is stated in the absence of all the local customizers that a given setting/context might add.

Here are the two key issues.

1) is the demon's Need. A demon Bound to a dead sorcerer does not have someone around who is meeting its Need. Some demons are capable of acting on their own to get it, but the way I conceive it, doing it for yourself (as a demon) just "isn't the same." And a demon who doesn't get its Need eventually sickens, drops in Power, and gets Banished.

2) is the "grounding" effect of Binding. An un-Bound demon also eventually sickens, drops in Power, and gets Banished.

So there's a bit of a trade-off. A demon with a dead master tends to stick with the Binding in order to remain in existence, but also to seek a new Binder in order to get its Need met (or met more consistently). The "window" of being un-Bound between the two masters is clearly quite a vulnerable time for a demon.

All of this becomes more interesting with a couple of other rules in action. The first is when we're talking about Possessors and Parasites, who suffer from the same sicken/weaken/Banish problem if they do not have a current host. The second is the possible role of the Contain ritual, which, as well as limiting a demon's movements and actions, provides an indefinite defense against the adverse affects of being in Need and being un-Bound.

Best,
Ron