Is the mainstream changing?

[quozl]

I just read an article in Time Magazine dated December 2, 2002 about "why we crave fantasies now".   (It has the characters of The Two Towers movie on the cover.)  The author of the article says people have become disillusioned with sci-fi and are turning to fantasy with its moral simplicity as they face a complex world with terrorism hiding behind every door.

Frankly, I don't agree that fantasy has simplistic morality or that people are disillusioned by science fiction but what do you think?  Are people's tastes changing to fantasy and, if so, what is it about fantasy that appeals to them?  Is it moral simplicity or something else?

[Andrew Martin]

Is it moral simplicity or something else?

I think it's the lack of moral "gray" areas. Usually in fantasy, there are moral absolutes -- everyone knows who's evil and who's good, and no one is on the border between the camps. :)

I think for the US (Note I'm not a US citizen and I live in New Zealand), it started on September 11, 2001, with the media presentation of US actions around the world, and little to no presentation of other nation's actions, so distorting people's views.

But against that, is the fact that the Harry Potter series of books and movies are good, the Lord of the Rings trilogy movie is being shown (and that's superb!), and people are viewing and buying well made, high quality movies and books. I think there's always a market for well made, high quality, fantasy movies and books.

Just my opinion.

[MK Snyder]

I think the essayist is representing fantasy too simplistically.

I know I don't read as much science fiction as I used to because science fact is just moving too fast for the fiction to keep up.  The "science fiction" that is just Westerns in Space (Star Wars) is fantasy anyway.

And what would the essayist do with the horror genre of the sympathetic monster that is so popular now? Vampire erotica and all that... or the popularity of the True Crime genre? The change in Horror would seem to point toward greater moral ambiguity, while the popularity of True Crime would point to a desire for moral certainty.

[Jack Spencer Jr]

I haven't read the essay, but looking the thread over I don't think it holds much water, but I daresay that mainstream always changes and is a constant state of flux. Bon Jovi used to be cool, then he sucked, now he's cool again, I guess. Baseball used to be the National Pastime in the US, but anyone who's paying attention knows Football has it beat. Heck, NASCAR and WWE seem to be drawing in more people daily. Mainstream is just what most people are either into or accept. That can and does change. Count on it.

[James V. West]

Why fantasy? Because people get swords faster than they get ion propulsion or bipartisan politics?

As MK mentioned, the tech is advancing so quickly today that by the time you read about a new gadget, they're making a faster version of it. I don't know what the latest microprocessor is so I'm at a disadvantage in cyberspace, but if I have a stick in my hand I can still whip people just like I could 5000 years ago.

I think the idea of fantasy is so versatile that it lends itself to the widest possible range of applications.

[Jack Spencer Jr]

Frankly, I don't agree that fantasy has simplistic morality or that people are disillusioned by science fiction but what do you think?  Are people's tastes changing to fantasy and, if so, what is it about fantasy that appeals to them?  Is it moral simplicity or something else?

I'm sorry, I misread the point of this thread. Let me try again.

No, people's tastes are not changing to fantasy. Whoever wrote that article was being silly. People are suddenly thinking about fantasy because someone had decided to make a movie out of Lord of the Rings, and they actually managed to do a good job. So fantasy is "in," baby, very "in." This will mean there will be fantasy movies from other studios, which happens. Remember Deep Impact/Armageddon? Does this mean peoples tastes are changing? Hell no. It's the flavor of the month. Once Return of the King goes to DVD, people will be poretty sick of fantasy and a new flavor will be what's "in." Does fantasy have a more simplistic morals? Hell no. All movies, especially big Hollywood movies have very, very simple moral coloring. Heroes are good, villians are bad and women are beautiful.

I don't know what that article said in Time since I didn't read it, but if this is what he said I cannot imagine anything more wrong. It sounds like it's more an article about terrorism and current fears than anything about fantasy and it sounds like he has a very limited understanding about fantasy in general. Such is my take.

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

I just realized a serious conceptual problem which seems to be plaguing everyone.

"Mainstream" does not mean "popular" in terms of raw numbers. These are two different things.

So I want to discuss mainstream content in role-playing games, and everyone goes all kerflooey because they start discussing popularity. This also explains why cognitive dissonance sets in and we go 'round and 'round - because (given the above misconception) you can't be mainstream unless you're already popular, you can't be popular unless you're mainstream, does not compute, 404 error site not found, ker-sput, ker-sput.

Yeah. That's what it sounds like around here sometimes. In light of the ongoing Infamous Five and associated threads, I suggest reconsidering the relationship between "mainstream" and "popular" (in the sense of overwhelming purchases). Not the same things.

Best,
Ron

[quozl]

In light of the ongoing Infamous Five and associated threads, I suggest reconsidering the relationship between "mainstream" and "popular" (in the sense of overwhelming purchases). Not the same things.

Best,
Ron

Sorry about the mix-up in terms.  (Has thread #5 been posted yet, BTW?)

Let me try to focus this thread:  If fantasy is becoming more popular, what is the reason?  If the reason is moral clarity (I think this term is more accurate than moral simplicity), then does that help or hinder the prospect of fantasy RPGs becoming more popular?

[JSDiamond]

I disagree with the notion that fantasy is becoming more popular, -it always has been.  Even during the hyper-spaztic 'conspiracy game' bandwagon jumping that I had to suffer through a year-and-a-half ago.

Besides, if fantasy was so 'in' why are there more sci-fi shows popping up on tv?  Where's the LotR onslaught there?  

As to sci-fi's bad rap.  From a role-play game perspective, sci-fi has always been the stepchild genre of rpgs because years before even D&D, there was Star Trek and all of those wonderful yellow-spine DAW sci-fi novels of the sixties.  Add to that we live and breathe tech, and on varying levels no matter what the setting or game, we kind of already know the boundaries: Vacuum can kill you and there are no kindly priests to raise you for 2500 gold pieces.  

Fantasy role-playing on the other hand, will always find an audience because most of the time it does a better job of delivering that 'stranger in a strange land' feel.  I also think it's the *lack* of conventional morality that is appealing, not that it's more defined.  In worlds with resurrection rules, magic rings and dieties, -tell me where the 'more defined' morality is.  Those things are all safety nets, dodges and get out of jail free cards.  

I believe that we love fantasy because of the feeling that we can do and live the way we want.   'Feh' on Time, anyway.  It's just another a junk magazine like Peeple [that was intentional].

[Emily Care]

Just because fantasy films are popular does not mean sci-fi is out.  Historically there are far fewer fantasy films that have been made than sci-fi.

Ironically, I believe that part of the reason that we've had a spurt of Fantasy films has been due to the technology of film currently available. Computer animation makes magic possible. This is not new.  Ray Harryhausen used the then cutting edge technique of stop-motion animation for his many fantasy films.  

The Harry Potter/LOTR conjunction (which has me thanking the Universe for letting me be a geek right now all the time) seems like a couple generational waves of interest in fantasy cresting together.  The kids of today who were turned on to fantasy (and in some cases, reading in general) by the Potter series. And the kids of yesterday ("our" generation) who were turned on to fantasy by Tolkien.  

--Emily Care