Should I buy Sorcerer & Sword?

[ethan_greer]

So here's the thing: I've glanced through a friend's copy of Sorcerer, and I have no interest whatsoever in playing it or running it.  (Sorry Ron...)

But, I've also glanced at the contents for Sorcerer & Sword, and it looks like it might be interesting and/or useful outside of it's primary purpose as a Sorcerer supplement.  Couple that with the fact that I am very interested in fantasy gaming, and you may begin to see my quandry.

So my question is, does Sorcerer & Sword have merit as a general treatise on fantasy gaming if it is assumed from the get-go that it will not be used as a Sorcerer supplement?  If so, why?  If not, why not?

Any insights would be appreciated.

[Valamir]

Sorceror and Sword is IMO the best written of 3 three books, and also the one most able to serve as reference for other games.

Some items to note:  Ron has some decided opinions on fantasy literature that are featured front and center in S&S, namely:

Old school pulp era Sword and Sorcery is fantasy worth reading.
Tolkien Imitators ala Jordon are crap (i.e. most modern fantasy).
Tolkien Imitators attempting to interpret classic Sword and Sorcery tales (i.e. deCamp and Carter) are crap.

If you start in agreement with those (or at least not vehement opposition) you'll find a huge treasure trove of how to set up and run a Sword and Sorcery adventure.  The examples are obviously Sorceror examples but the ideas presented are universal.

One of the best pieces of advice (for which a sizeable portion of a chapter or so is dedicated) is creating the world in play not before play...just like Howard created his word to be whatever he needed for the particular story he was writing at the time.

There's also alot of good stuff about how Sword and Sorcery characters interact with the various "powers" that populate S&S settings.  They are couched in terms of Sorcerer Demons, but the concepts of how characters and such powers should interact and relate to each other are pure gold.

In short.  1) Yes, it is worth getting.
2) Even if you've had no desire to play Sorcerer, this supplement will likely make you want to player Sorcerer & Sword Sorcerer.

[greyorm]

Yes. Very worthwhile as a non-Sorcerer supplement.
Ideas and methods from it have been used to great effect in focusing and on-stage development of my D&D campaign.

[Blake Hutchins]

Hell yes.

Best,

Blake

[catenwolde]

So my question is, does Sorcerer & Sword have merit as a general treatise on fantasy gaming if it is assumed from the get-go that it will not be used as a Sorcerer supplement?  If so, why?  If not, why not?

S&S is the most insightful and valuable piece of rpg publishing that I have read in twenty-two years.  If you have any desire to run a campaign based on the original S&S genre, such as Conan, Elric, or Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser, you just can't do it without this book.  I've tried every system under the sun attempting to do this, and this has been the only book to treat the genre with the detail and dedication it deserves.

Simply put, you'll gain valuable insight into how and why to run a campaign that resembles those great old books and stories, even if you don't use the S&S rules - but I think you'll want to after reading them.  Like you, I wasn't into Sorcerer itself, but S&S hits the mark spot on.

Regards,

Christopher

[ethan_greer]

Hell yes.

Hell why?

Looking for as much insight as possible, to aid in my decision.  If you feel inclined, I'd love to hear why you are so enthusiastic about this supplement, Blake.

To all:  Thanks for the input so far.  I feel I should point out at this point that I've read little of the pulp sword & sorcery stuff mentioned in previous threads.  That's not to say I haven't an interest in the genre (or my current understanding of the definition of that genre).  Given that, is Sorcery & Sword still a worthy purchase?

[catenwolde]

To all:  Thanks for the input so far.  I feel I should point out at this point that I've read little of the pulp sword & sorcery stuff mentioned in previous threads.  That's not to say I haven't an interest in the genre (or my current understanding of the definition of that genre).  Given that, is Sorcery & Sword still a worthy purchase?

I would still say the answer is yes, for the following reasons:

1. It has an excellent introduction to the literature, including a bibliography, so you can use it build a reading list and have fun getting into a new genre.

2. It has excellent advice on how to handle heroic characters singly and in groups, how to handle world creation for heroic style play, and how both players and gm's should interact to build a heroic campaign style.  All this information is presented in a fairly rules nuetral mode, so it should be transportable as good, solid advice to any system.  In additon, there are excellent examples of different hero and world styles throughout the book.

3. If you want an extreme example, my brother is using it as a guideline for moving his 3e campaign in a better direction, and as another example, if I had this advice when I was running my GURPS Hyboria campaign we probably wouldn't have flamed out.

Regards,

Christopher

[Blake Hutchins]

Hi silkworm,

Sorry.  I felt moved to add a note of enthusiasm, but I can see how it comes off as glib and annoying.  The other guys have said it well, I think, but I'll give you my two cents' worth of specifics and try not to echo them overmuch.

Sorcerer & Sword has:

- An excellent review of Sword & Sorcery literature that fits hand in glove with a clear and enlightening discussion of what kinds of heroes you find in the genre, as well as their themes, variations, flavors, and adventure types.  The sample heroes are all intriguing characters, and useful examples regardless of system.

- Three very different sample settings, any of which can stand by themselves to ground a campaign on.  These settings are presented in bite-sized bits throughout the book, and they illustrate how you can take similar setting bits and tweak them to create wildly different outcomes and fleshed out worlds with only a little verbiage (thereby avoiding encyclopediac manuscripts).  The comparative value here alone offers a ton for any world-builder.

- A great explanation of the combat and conflict conventions of heroic fantasy, with what I consider some ground-breaking insights on encouraging player-character protagonism.  This part by itself has altered the way I play, very much for the better.

- An essay that offers alternative ways of conceiving a "campaign," including commentary on character death and destiny, non-chronological adventures, and hero-sidekick group structure.

Aside from the exceptionally high quality of the content, Ron's writing is clear, fun to read, and actually quite thought-provoking in and of itself (something rare in a game-book).

I've run a brief playtest of Sorcerer, but not a full game.  Nevertheless, the material in Sorcerer & Sword makes it one of my top resources.  I consider it one of the cleanest, clearest, most creatively exciting books on my shelf, easily on a par with Nobilis and Dying Earth.

Regarding the pulp source material in the genre, you will get a lot more out of this book if you read that stuff, but it's not strictly necessary to do so.  If you do, you'll grok the examples more and pull more of the subtle nuances out, but the material without the reading background is still solid gold.  I'd suggest you take a gander at the source literature anyway, since much of it is damn fine reading.

Hope that helps.  I'm going to turn the tap off now.

Best,

Blake

[jburneko]

I feel I should point out at this point that I've read little of the pulp sword & sorcery stuff mentioned in previous threads.  That's not to say I haven't an interest in the genre (or my current understanding of the definition of that genre).  Given that, is Sorcery & Sword still a worthy purchase?

Yes, for precisely the reason you say above.  I have to admit that I haven't gotten much use out of Sorcerer & Sword in terms of actual play, despite the fact that I keep trying.  But what I HAVE gotten out of it is a litterary education.  Chapter 1 has done WONDERS for broadening my perspective and interests in fantasy litterature.  I really didn't enjoy fantasy much at all until I started reading the stuff in Sorcerer & Sword.

The best part is that Ron, doesn't just say, "Oh, read Robert E. Howard", he says, "Read THESE stories by Howard, ignore these stories, and here's why..."

When I picked up my two anthologies of Conan stories the first thing I did was number the stories in the order they were published, not the order they were listed in the anthologies and I marked which ones Ron drew attention to in the book.

I've done this with Clark Ashton Smith and Fritz Leiber as well.

C.L. Moore is my next goal.

Oh, and Chapter 7 is pretty universally applicable if you're interested in applying some Narrativist techniques to your fantasy gaming.

Jesse

[ethan_greer]

Thanks, all.  My path seems clear...

BTW Blake, no apology necessary.  I was amused.  Thanks for the detail. :)

[Blake Hutchins]

silkworm,

NP.  We consider it a good day when our antics offer up some amusement to passersby.  ;-)

Best,

Blake