Sorcerous Limitations...

[Brian Leybourne]

BrianL: Did you mean "monumentally" or "momentarily"?  Normally I don't nitpick that much, but it makes quite a difference!  :-D

The former, but actually either works well - a monumental fark up (even a momentary one) can be lethal in TROS :-)

Brian.

[Bankuei]

understand the idea of a story driven by SAs. But my players need direction, more than just the SAs provide; they need prodding, guidance, sometimes outright rail roading. That's just the way they play. That's what they want so that's what I give them.

... I just can't say "no sorcerers!". I've certainly thought about it, but I just hate telling the players they can't do stuff. Someone always plays a spellcaster.

Either the PC's get free will, and the ability to be protagonists, or they don't.  If you're "driving" the story, not merely propping it up with SA's, there's no place for railroading.  Whenever you're railroading players, you're saying, "You can't do that with the story".

Not railroading doesn't mean no guidance. I highly suggest you check out Sorcerer's Kickers and Bangs, as well as check out anything on Scene Framing in the Theory/actual play threads for some great examples of guiding without predetermining the results.  

If your story hinges on a "one thing", then its not much of a conflict.  For example, if killing one person will stop a war, its not a war.  If one piece of information reveals the mystery, its not a mystery.

In good stories, the conflict is not the bad guy.  What happens when there's two groups of pretty good people, but just enough food for one group?  What happens when one person does wrong and the group gets punished?  Is it the king's fault?  His minister?  The head of the watch?  Who's corrupt?  Are they mistaken?  The conflict exists beyond the scope of a single person , although we tend to focus on one on one conflicts.  There's a lot of stuff a single sword or spell won't fix.

Chris

[ShaneNINE]

Bankuei, I agree with all your points. Your assumption, though, is that I'm a good GM. Sadly, I'm not. And everyone else in my group is pretty new to "free will" style of play. They're recovering dungeon crawlers (pretty much all they've played till recently) and I've rarely GMed before.

About the railroading: yeah, it's like saying "you can't do that". True. But I only do it when the players are totally, completely lost. Our first attempt at a "free will" game was a Hârn campaign that we spent a year setting up. They had awesome characters with tons of background; they knew the setting; I know Hârn really well so they pretty much could have gone anywhere, done anything, and I would have had something to give them, something going on for them to get involved with. But when we started playing there were lots of moments where they looked at me expectantly and I looked at them expectantly and we just kinda looked at each other. So, y'know, I had to force them into action. When I talked to them about it they pretty much said they wanted/needed the "guidance".

If I was a master story teller I could run a great game with any system, maybe even no system at all. Always interested in getting better, though,  so I'll definately check out the stuff you suggested.

I seem to have hijacked this thread. Bad form, sorry. Maybe Jake can split it off.

[Bankuei]

Shane, I'm very interested in continuing this discussion, so I'll start a new thread-Unstated bits of TROS, see you there.

Chris

[prophet118]

well im going to post in here instead of making a new thread, since my question does pertain to sorcery...

ok so a sorceror can cast a spell of one in pitched melee combat, so long as the CTN wasnt higher than 2... well anyone got some examples for me?.... i suppose a few very basic and simple spells could be done... possibly a growth spell (since range 0 would be yourself...

so like if you wanna make yourself bigger (expanding 1)... it'd be target 0 (self), i suppose range would be 0 as well, since its yourself again, volume, that be a 2, though duration i think would be at least a 1...

making the ctn 3.... damn thats hard to think of some


ok conquer... using control level 3..

target... aww man thats already a 3..

someone help me think of some ctn 2 or less spells of one that could be cast in a melee.... its kinda hard..


ok secondary.... using sculpture, composition 3, i could disintegrate a target.... does it matter if its living material?

[Brian Leybourne]

With a bit of prep work, this is no stress (spells of 1 can still be formulised).

A popular example would be T1(inanimate), R1(touch), V1(20 lbs), D0 (instant), L1 (Growth 1). Overall TN4, -2 for formulisation makes 2. Touch targets helmet and it shrinks x10. Squish.

Having said that though, I must say that any sorcerer who actually gets into melee with a sword swinging opponent and who isn't already prepared is dead dead dead. By the time a sorcerer actually enters melee, he should be unkillable, or he's stupid. TROS magic isn't about slinging quick spells in combat, it's about being ready.

Brian.

[prophet118]

yeh i know, one of my players hates the magic system because she cant do what she does in D&D, or mage the ascension... which is, cast in combat and supposedly suffer no ill effects...........course we all know that it isnt true...

im trying to explain to her that if you are in melee combat with someone (toe to toe as it were), you arent going to be waving your hands around casting a spell...ya know?

it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure it out..

shes used to casting spells in pitched melee...which when i get back to D&D im going to start inforcing the melee rules for that, mainly, you better cast on the defensive, and if i remember correctly that requires a concentration roll......people ignore alot of things for the sake of the game......or so they say

[Vanguard]

I totally agree with BrianL's view on TROS. For me. it is very much a heroic/mysterious affair. I don't see the stereotype bunch of adventurers (all ranging in skills and careers, and all of an aproximate similar level) travelling the land together in search of XP.  That was a complete aside to my main point, but I wanted to say it :)

Regarding ways in which to limit the destructive potential of your PC sorceror. I go with Jake's idea. Though I've not run a sorceror yet, I have thought about how I might deal with one. And it comes down to the 'always bigger fish in the pond'.  A mage limits himself/herself out of fear. Not just out of fear of aging, but of attracting the attention of others sorcerors.  Even if the PC is the finest mage in the land, should he take upon himself to destablisise the entire world (thus impinging on the interests of varied other sorcerors) then those other mages are more than likely to team up in an effort to disarm our PC. In TROS, worse than facing mutliple swordsmen, I believe, would be multiple sorcerors.

So yeah, your PC mage starts buggering up things excessively, you bring some bigger guns into the picture, some bigger guns who aren't too impressed with his messign about with their interests.

Take care

[prophet118]

i think the anime series Slayers hurts alot of DM/ST/GM...

lol

[Lucien Black]

i think the anime series Slayers hurts alot of DM/ST/GM...

Maybe, but it's such a FUN series!!  I remember a scene where the Big Bad Evil Vampire was getting pissed, so decided to show them his "true form!"  His body starts swelling, twisting, mutating into this horrible bat-like demonic creature. . . and POP! he's a tiny bat that starts flapping and squeking around Lina's head.  She smacks him on the head while screaming "What the heck is getting small supposed to do??!!"

I thought it was hilarious, personally.

*looks around, then slinks away in embarrassment... but still mentally giggling*

Lucien

[prophet118]

i like the series as well, its just that, the kind of shoot first mentality really messes with people.... "oh no a small skirmish...better use Dragon Slay"

[Lucien Black]

i like the series as well, its just that, the kind of shoot first mentality really messes with people.... "oh no a small skirmish...better use Dragon Slay"

True, I suppose that could happen.  Hopefully it's possible to quickly show them the error of their ways however.  And I think some of the Slayers are overly arrogant and just like to show off.... er, which is an awful lot like some players I"ve seen.

Anyway, since this thread is concerning limitations, could one safely assume that the Vision does not need to be limited to sight alone?  Could one use to listen to a conversation miles away, or smell the flowers of a kings famous private gardens without risking capture for trespassing, or taste your food to make sure it isn't poisoned, or... well, I can't think of a legitimate reason to use long distance touch off the top of my head, but you get the idea?

Or perhaps to sense the flow of energy itself... sense someone's life force to determine just how old they really are, as opposed to what they look like, or to trace a spell that just went off back to it's source, or sense when someone is themselves using Vision to spy on you, determine the relative strength and skill of another sorcerer by sensing the amount of sorcerous energy flowing through them and the degree of control they seem to have, tell if a woman is pregnant and (if your Seneschal says that life force patterns are somewhat inherited) who the real father is, etc.  I can actually think of quite a few uses for this one, though not many have any application in a fantasy setting.  Maybe you have more?  If this can be done that is.

Anyway, Vision seems like the vagary I would use the most if I had this kind of power in real life, which is probably why I'm so curious.

Lucien

[prophet118]

well some of the effects do make it seem like they could be used for seeing into the future.. also far off places... but its sight...then again seeing into the future i guess would let you hear things too, or it would be as usful... im not sure about letting you see if someone poisoned your food, but you could use like level 3, and look back using the food, to see how it was prepared, and if something funky was done to it.....lol


i think maybe vision and.... well maybe growth to some degree could be used to see something inside someone... but then it may just be vision... .. looking fair enough in on the really tiny scale...lol

[Lance D. Allen]

Insert the usual "It's your game..." line here.

Using Vision to view the past of an object would be very useful, and easier than other types of time-seeing. It'd be similar the the supposed psi-ability of psychometry, where a psychic touches an object, and knows what has happened to it, either recently, or more distantly in the past.

Very useful suggestion.

[prophet118]

the funny thing is that alot of the magic in here, reminds me of the pscionics from AD&D... particularly alot of the movement stuff, when used on someone, or something...

like for instance, the old stand by of AD&D pscions.. "Molecular Agitation"... sure it took a few rounds to make something burst into flame, but it could happen... i think what im going to do is look through my 2nd ed pscions handbook for more ideas on spells.....lol