Preperation and Annoying Friends' Campaigns...

[Eric J.]

So, Pyron is here to bitch about his players, eh?  Yes and No.

I have a few questions, and since you guys are the most experienced bunch of people I know:

*My origincal (good) campaign ended because of the incoherency of the group.  They kinda ditched it because I couldn't show up for personal reasons.  One friend started another 1-session campaign which ended because of friend( :( )  He will hereafter be reffered to as a :( face.  Just kidding:).  His name is Cody.  You have read about him before and is always ready to reak havok upon my life :).  Anyway.  After my friends Planescape campaign ended because Cody effectivelley killed himself, Cody found a supplement for the "Battletech RPG."  I hope that someone knows what that is.  I've seen it mentioned on the internet zero times.  He basically got all of his friends together to play an RPG he didn't have the rules for and had never seen.
   Now, to me, that isn't winging it.  It is getting together with a bunch of people with machine guns, shooting up into the air, and hoping that no bullets land upon you.  Now get this:  He's converting the D6 system to do this.  He has had no experience outside of 3rd ed. D&D, and some messed up play with Star Wars D6.  Now, I'm not trying to insult him.  I really aren't, and I will get to my main point.  Hang tight.  Now:  After the first session (which I refused to play in) only 1 player thought it was stupid and refused to play.  They met for a second session, and I decided to give him a chance.  I started to roll up a character, but I kept getting bad rolls on my background, and was eventually left with about 8 choices.  He said that out of them, I could either be a smuggler or something worse.  The second session went on well without me. Every time I asked why they were playing I got the same clique: "It's just for fun."  Now, how this relates:

*-  I spent numerous hours and ideas from my "Use in case of emergency or really really cool play" folder.  I assembled a personal folder, which I created detailed equipment, races, enemies, experience guidelines, ect.  I also gathered all usefull data from the internet.  I also used the coolest premise I have ever thought of for use of campaigns.  Unfortinitelley my players don't know it yet, which is one of my flaws.  I can't reveal it here, becaues one of my players browses these forums, but you could (gasp!) PM me, or whatever, if you wanted to request further details.  Now then-

(If you really want to hit the back button, I won't hold it against you if you act upon your urge.)

*- We now have two campaigns going on at once.  I fully expected his to collapse for several reasons:  He's only GMed, um....once before?  Twice before?  I don't think that any campaign that he's started has gone over two sessions, and that was using a coherent system (or any system at all) and premade adventures.  There are GNS conflicts.  It's in a universe that only 1 of three players are trully familiar with (and battletech MUST be well known about since the GM has read basically EVERY battletech novel ever created, and stands by the data completelley.)  The system/he gave the players no control over their backgrouds, ect.  The system and rules have been declared by players to be messed up.

*- Why doesn't it fall apart?  I don't know what conflicts in campaigns will erupt, but it doesn't look pretty.  I've never come across this before.  Will the players side with the serious experienced GM, abandon him for a more relaxed style, or try to do play in both campaigns at the same time?

*- I should have described my campaign better, but I think that I've covered almost every fundimental concept presented here on the forge. Social contract; GNS; system matching premise; no railroading; and every guideline it gives me in the GMing section.  I've actually expressed interest in the PC's experiences.  Is there a centeral conflict that I've missed?

I have a week and a half to fix this, but I'm just wondering if there is some obvious thing that I'm missing.  I relise how long and complex this is, and I'd be happy to answer any questions.

[Andrew Martin]

...Cody found a supplement for the "Battletech RPG."  I hope that someone knows what that is.  I've seen it mentioned on the internet zero times.  He basically got all of his friends together to play an RPG he didn't have the rules for and had never seen.

Perhaps this supplement is the MechWarrior RPG? It's FASA's RPG system for roleplaying the pilots of the big battlemechs in their hex-based wargames, BattleTech.

This may also be the attraction that the players see? They are seeing "big machines going bang!" and want to enjoy exploring a new setting?

Is there a central conflict that I've missed?

Have you got something that "wows!" players? :) Cody's game seems to have the big bangs and big mecha, at least at first sight to the players. What does your game/campaign have?

[quozl]

I'm not sure if I should be opening my mouth (because I may need to insert my foot) but it might not be the game.  Maybe they just like to game with Cody better than you.  Maybe you're too uptight about roleplaying and they just want to relax and shoot stuff.  I have no idea since I don't know anybody involved so feel free to tell me to stick my foot in.

[hyphz]

Hi Pyron,

Basically from what you wrote I get the feeling that you've hit two things that I myself have been thinking about recently.  Basically:

*  GNS, the Forge, the GM guidelines, etc, etc.. are not a magic checklist that assures that players will enjoy your game.  Being familiar with the techniques involved is a plus.  But I did what I think you're doing: picking up things like GNS, narrativism, alternate stances, and so on, like shiny new hammers and seeing everything looking like a nail.  But it isn't.  There are many gamers who play illusionism, or "degenerate" systems, and enjoy themselves and don't become "GNS casualties".  I know that those GNS casualties do exist, because I have seen them and I have BEEN one exactly as described by Ron, but it's by no means all-encompassing.

*  Getting too serious for the players can kill their interest faster than any sort of GNS error.  They quickly fear getting things wrong, don't know how to respond to anything, feel that too much consideration is getting involved, and so on.  Getting too serious for yourself can kill your own impetus to run the game, and lead to things being continuously rejected in your head, or lead to you building folders and folders of Really Cool Ideas That You'll Use When...  I've been there too.  Note that this isn't the same as preparing a game carefully, having ideas, not quoting comedy lines in the middle of Cthulhu, etc.  
 
 There's something I want to say here.  Something that I realised when I read a particular reply on the TROS forum (the one to do with SAs).  But I can't quite put it into words at the moment.  It's too late.  I'll try and work it out another time.  Suffice it for the moment to say that sometimes you do just want to get in a big robot and blow stuff up, as others have said.

[Eric J.]

Thanks for the responses. Now-

There are a couple of things that I haven't made clear:

I don't really know which campaign that the players prefer.  I just want to understand how the players will react to the coming conflict.  I do have something that my RPG offers that will be REALLY cool, but I need about two more sessions to pull it off.

Cody's Battletech RPG is different from what I'd expect.  He's converted D6 Star Wars to play it, and all the battles thus far have either been entirelley railroaded (4 mechs and a plane destroyed 20 mechs), or gone an entire session without any mech battles (The only thing that they did in session 2 was a beer brawl where no one became injured).  It would seem to me that any Mechwarrior or Batletech RPG would need to have wargaming as its focus.  


And quozl, I'm desperate for answeres here.  If that is the truth, than I will need to deal with it.  In such a case as this, the problem may be greator than what I expect or want to deal with.  However, I will need to deal with the probelm anyway.
It's just that I'm struggling.  I don't understand how an RPG can function if the GM never hands out experience in a sytem where experience exists.

[Andrew Martin]

I don't really know which campaign that the players prefer.

You'll need to ask the players something like, "which campaign/game did you prefer? And why?" And then wait for their replies. And keep asking questions to show that you want to understand. Of course, you'll have to want to understand as well -- this can be hard to do.

...all the battles thus far have either been entirelley railroaded (4 mechs and a plane destroyed 20 mechs), or gone an entire session without any mech battles (The only thing that they did in session 2 was a beer brawl where no one became injured).

This is just a guess on my part, but I feel that the players might think that their characters are more powerful in Cody's game than in yours (no PC died, they did great!). Would you agree or differ?

I don't understand how an RPG can function if the GM never hands out experience in a sytem where experience exists.

I think that's called drift in play? Perhaps you ask the players how they feel about this aspect.

[Roy]

Hey, Pyron!  

I'm going to jump in here and point a couple things out that I noticed in your post.

I don't really know which campaign that the players prefer.

Why don't you ask them?  Roleplaying is a group activity, so get the group involved.  

I do have something that my RPG offers that will be REALLY cool, but I need about two more sessions to pull it off.

Ah, that's familiar.  The problem could be that YOU are TELLING this "cool story" that the players don't know anything about yet ... "but it'll be really cool in a couple of sessions when I bring the players in on it."

Please understand that I'm not making fun of you at all with the above.  I just used the quotes to emphasize the problem.  And I've done the same thing.

The problem with the above is that the players and their characters don't really matter ... because you're telling the story and they're just the audience.  That's a sure fire way to lose your players' interest.

You really need to learn to put the players at the center of the roleplaying and help them tell the story they want to tell.  Take a look at "Sorcerer" and "Sorcerer and Sword" by Ron Edwards.  I can tell you those two books have really transformed the way I roleplay, no matter what system I'm using.

It would seem to me that any Mechwarrior or Batletech RPG would need to have wargaming as its focus.

Not necessarily.  I could imagine a very gritty and emotional roleplaying game set in the Battletech universe.  

It's also possible the players may prefer wargaming to roleplaying and really love those elements of the Battletech setting.

I don't understand how an RPG can function if the GM never hands out experience in a sytem where experience exists.

You can have a very functional and enjoyable roleplaying session without ever "handing out experience," regardless of whether the system supports it or not.

You're automatically assuming that people play roleplaying games in order to "make their characters better" through experience.  I can assure that's not always the case.  For example, I really enjoy the shared storytelling experience and could care less if my character becomes more powerful.

From what I've read in your posts, here are a couple of situations that could be contributing to your problem:

1)  You may be railroading your players without even realizing it.  For example, you may put them into a situation where there's really only one decision they could make.  

2)  The players may enjoy Cody's "fly-by-night" GMing better because he's letting them make decisions that appear important to them, even if the outcome of the decision is determined by Cody's imagination rather than a dice roll.

3)  By your own admission, you really don't know what roleplaying game the group enjoys more.  Talk to your group.  Find out what they really like and cater to it while still working the parts in you enjoy.

4)  Do you have a problem with Cody beyond different playing preferences?

5)  What is wrong with having more than one game going at the same time?  I'm currently GMing one game while playing in another game with many of the same players.

I would suggest you get everyone together and find out what they really like and dislike about each play style.  Talking with your players can really give you new insights into your gaming.  I know it has for me.

Roy

[Fabrice G.]

Hi Eric (Pyron),

I fully agree with what Roy said...and would like to had one thing.

The problem may also reside in the fact that you're analysing a lot of thing here, and that this kind of intellectual approch

Being here on the forge, you have come to the habit of analyzing things, reflecting upon your pratices and the "behavior" of your player...and enjoying all of this. IME, it's a very personnal thing. I enjoy too thinking about the technicalities of play (stances, scene framing, GNS inclination, etc.) ; but, while presenting all this to a friend of mine, I discovered that all that analysis, all that seriousness, was clearly way out of his conceptual frame of  what is fun in rpgs.
Beside all this, it seems to me that your tastes have changed significantly since your first post here, so too have your goals in rpgs. But maybe those of the other members of your group haven't.

So, you asked for suggestion, here's mine :

You and your fiends have to make sure that you want the same thing out of your rpg sessions AND be carefull about not being too "intellectual" or "analytical" when you're doing so.

Hope that it helps,

Fabrice.

[Roy]

Fabrice is right on the money.  

I enjoy discussing theory and trying different things out, but my wife and step-son just want to play and not worry about the various nuances.

Roy

[Scratchware]

Ah. Glad to see you on Eric. I want do join the discussion.

As some of you know, I rpg with Pyron. And yes, I am the single player who out of our small group who agrees with Pyron that Cody is insane. I love Pyron's campaign.. In fact I can't think of a bad one that we had when he has Gamemastered that wasn't Cody's fault. :)

What I want to say is: How do you deal with a person like Cody? He likes blowing things up and refuses to actually role-play which by the way is THE WHOLE POINT TO RPGing! ...

Last night (saturday night) Pyron and I were at our homes doing absolutely nothing while they played battletech. They chose that extremely gamist acting person's modified d6 campaign centered on blowing things up over Pyron's awesome simulationist campaign.

Added:

I would play with just me and him it's just we are sick of throwing away campaigns and we have (had) a successful one going. We have never had one that lasted for more than 6 sessions. I have never gained more than 1 level in any of our D&D campaigns.. So naturally I try to keep campaigns and hate to throw one away that we just started. That is why I need to get the other two players do become enthusiastic about the current one.

This brings me to my question: Can you help us to get people to like Pyron's simulationist campaign over Cody's Battletech campaign?

[Fabrice G.]

Hi Scratchware,

Just two thing :

He likes blowing things up and refuses to actually role-play which by the way is THE WHOLE POINT TO RPGing! ...

You just seem to enjoy two very different things, witch leads to...

Last night (saturday night) Pyron and I were at our homes doing absolutely nothing while they played battletech.

And I was playing a V:tM introduction's rules game with only one player and we had a blast. ;)
My point, if there's two of you, either play or find a third player to play...

Fabrice.

[Roy]

Before I respond further to your posts, can you answer a few questions for us?

1)  Why is it important that you play with Cody and the players that seem to be enjoying his style of play?

2)  What do you (Pyron and Scratchware) want out of your roleplaying sessions?

3)  Have you asked the other players what they enjoy yet?  What do they want out of your roleplaying sessions?

I'll respond again when I see your answers.

Roy

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Eric,

I agree with Roy's questions, which is to say, I'd like to see your answers to them, and I'll add one of my own.

What's the deal with Cody's game, in terms of your attention to it? Why does it matter whether he's GMing at all, or how much people enjoy it? It seems to me that your priority should be focused solely on the enjoyment of your game, regardless of whether he's running another one.

Best,
Ron

[Scratchware]

Ah, yes. Good question Roy. It is not essential that we have Cody play with us, but it is essential that we have Jesse and Anthony (2 excellent roleplayers and my best friends). It is a lot of fun with them but Cody started his Battletech campaign right after Pyron did therefore taking away 2 of our players.. It just isn't the same without those 2.

Hope that answers your question.

[Eric J.]

Because, due to curcumstances, we can only play on friday nights.  I started this thread ( I think that I started it... Wait, yes I did.) with the thought that I'm having GM competition.  I have played in every one of Cody's campaign, if you exclude the most recent one, and found it very dissatisfying.  That is not to say that they were bad, but that "I" didn't enjoy them.  I'm simply trying to campare them and in how I can incorperate aspects of his campaign into my own, or learn from it or whatever...  I guess that I should give a detailed description on what happened at my last session.

Jesse- Defected noble freelance trader.
Problems:  His character seems not to be in perfect (to be mild) allignment with his background (2.5 pages by the way.)

Charly(Scratchware [BTW- I still wish that you would change your name :)] )- An ex-slave slicer.  We need to work on his background.
Problems: He didn't get his background completed before about 20 minutes before the session so I spent hours on the other players before I was able to introduce him.

Anthony- Chiss Diplomat:  Most succecefull in character.  He changes his attatudes and even his voice.
Problems:  ??? I'm sure that they're there.  Charly?  You have more insight.  You're a player, by God.

Anyway-

The session starts as Jesse is moving towards Zemph station with a cargo load of organtics.  Jesse has this wierd ability to extrapolate stuff from little information, demonstrating a plot destruction device and a gift of in game knoledge use, and figures out that there're pirates in the nebula that's close to the station.  Anyway it starts as a chase scene between him and the pirates.  His ship is faster so he easily maneuvers himself out of almost all of his blasts.  Anyway he's approaching the station and he is critically hitted.  His ship is heading towards the hanger bay and it nearly explodes.  He gets inside and is rescued by some freaky zealot who has no implication to the story.  He moves towards the elevator and is taken into custody.  Anyway- Anthony is his attorney.  I gave Antony the spotlight and he did some stuff, showing that there is a plot by the Verenian pirates to convict Jesse for his crimes (plowing into the station with a reactor breech).  I tried to include Jesse by having conversations with Anthony from his cell.    That sequence took about an hour.  The trial came up and Antony's commander was the prosecutor.  Anthony and Jesse win the trial.  It's more compecated than that, but you know.  It wasn't as simple as I made it out to be.  Anthony goes to bed and is awoken by his commander.  They have a brief conversation and Anthony is knocked out.  He is taken to the their ship in a docking bay.  Jesse convinced himself to sleep in his ship that night.  I think that I orchestrated this fairly creatvielley.  Anyway-  Jesse is awoken and tries to stop Anthony's former diplomatic commander.  This entails the first groundbased combat scene.  Jesse is matched by two Chiss pirates, who have BLASTERS.  Jesse only has his regulare firearm (slugthrower).  Anyway, Anthony achieves conciousness and joins the fight.  After they drop the two Chiss pirate goons, they have to fight the Chiss diplomat commander.  He has a portable energy field.  This is VERY high technology, and they are unable to deal with it so they flee with their ship.  /Pause  I should mention now, that they had taken to calling the Chiss diplomat commander a "Stravog".  I don't know WTH it means in battletech but I don't have a clue.  They assured me that they would always call the most powerful boss that, and I've been discuraging it ever since. /Unpause  The Diplomat chases after them in his own ship and critically hits their hyperdrive, so they take their ship down to the planet.  Who happens to be bored out of his mind and about to have a ship almost hit him in the head?  Charly!  Anyway, Charly fails to roleplay very well (he will admit it.) and we all go downstairs to watch tLotR SE.  Charly decides that he really wants to roleplay half-way through, and we go upstairs to play again.  Charly is much better, and he takes them to meet his master, who is kinda a cook.  I was able to manipulate his voice to where the character himself was fairly ammusing, and they go on a side quest (which was all very humerous) where they have to get 100 credits from this guys brother (who lives next door).  After that they explore the city and come upon a bar.  I nearly force them into going in it, displaying the most apparent railroading since the intercontinental railroad was first constucted.  Anyway, it kinda ends there.  

Problems:  I railroaded too much (but it's Star Wars!  [Shh... be quiet]).  I had a 24 pack of pepsi, and nearly infinite snacks.  I had our favorite music, and the appropriate track constintly.  Uhmm...  Why does Jesse favor Cody's?

There are some obvious answeres that it could be, but I've been able to eliminate a few.

Example:  I don't think that Cody protagonises his characters.  He maimed one of them, and they are all getting "their ass whooped"  by an alien force (the clans).  All to country music... which is fine, but I don't think any one (besides me, who is partial to bluegrass) of Cody's players like it.  

There is also the:  "Let's screw around, and have fun" factor (TM[J/k]).  I find this the leading possibility, but I question it nevertheless.  

So, a big long rambly post.  Any more questions?  I would really like to clarify to avoid missinterperotation.