i guess my opinion is last

[Aragorn]

Hello, since Rob said that Erics (pyrons) thread was to no longer be used, i firgured that i would simply say that, i am Avery, one of the other players in cody's Battletech compaign. I read through all of the thread that pyron had started and decided that my opinion should be heard, since it sems as of now that everyone is saying that the people RPGing with cody are gamists and such. Frankly, i don't care if you classify me as a gamest. I would rather say though that i am a little of both, depending on the GM, whether it be Eric or Cody, since i have not been around for anyone else's campaigns. I would also like to add, that i have only been in one of Erics campaigns, but many of cody's, so of course im going to be somewhat gamest because i havn't been around someone (eric) who is not gamest thats GMing. If you have any questions, feel free to ask them. But i have a great since that Rob will say that i should not have posted this and that no one should reply, if he doesn't feel free to do so.

                               Aragorn

[Aragorn]

sorry Ron, when reading that above, replace all instances of 'ROB' with RON, thanks

             Aragorn

[Eric J.]

LOL Avery, and Welcome to the Forge!

No one can be a gamist.  One can be gamist.  Don't let Jesse mess you up.

Here, there is no shame prefering the gamist mindset, and you don't have to be defensive.  I'm glad that you've posted here.  I'm working with Ron with restarting the thread (or whatever) and hope that you'll contribute to the discussion with us then.

As for saying that Cody's players are gamist minded, I never actually said that.  I would say that Cody's teqnique encourages the sim. mindset, but I don't know what his disposition to wargaming has to do with it.

BTW- There's an edit post option.

[Aragorn]

its not jesse that would mess me up, it would be cody. All i was simply saying was that i havn't had much expierence in the way of a non-gamest GM or DM for that matter like yourself, i have had Cody and Leon, both gamests, so i've become a gamest, im sure that if i were to do some sessions with you, charlie, and me, i would most defenitally no longer be such a gamist. since i know how to do the D6 system now (still learning though), i would be more then happy to join n e Star wars, D&D, or n e other campaign that would be brought up. I am also in support of letting Charlie  GM or DM depending on the game. I think we should let all of us at leats try it. If we don't like the way they do it, then we tell them, and we don't let them GM or DM n e more. I am, of course, supporting myself to DM once i have read the Dungoen Masters book. i know you will object, but like i said, we all deserve a try. i will probably mix up everything that i have learned from playing RPG's to make the game more...how shall i say... interesting? its not going to be combat, combat, combat. I would instead, have a good story line. it will be challenging i will say that at the least. AND I WILL MAKE SURE THAT CODY WILL NOT HAVE THE CHOICE OF BEING N E THING THAT CAN HEAL!!! no cleric, no medic, no cleric fighter, no ranger, no paladin, no n e thing that can heal. The only way he will be n e thing that can heal is if none of you are someone that can heal. So i strongly suggest that one of you be someone that can heal. Cody needs to learn how to differ his characters some. I think i will leave this at this once again.

                    Aragorn

[Eric J.]

Good post, Avery.  I would be more than happy to let you RP with my in any of my campaigns, excluding my current one.   However, I think that you still need to learn more about GNS before you begin using the terminology.  I can't get links to work, but you can easily find Ron's essay if you go to articles and then to "GNS and other matters of roleplaying design."  Good luck :).

[Andrew Martin]

...you can easily find Ron's essay if you go to articles and then to "GNS and other matters of roleplaying design."

Try here:
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles.php

...so i've become a gamest,...

... its not going to be combat, combat, combat. I would instead, have a good story line.

The above seems contradictory. Is the session like a wargame or boardgame? Where there are winners and loosers (Game)? Or is it like watching a movie or reading a book (Narration)? Or is it like reality; sometime even good people have accidents and die (Simulation)?

Note: there's no right or wrong answer, but people with different aims in the one session are going to get confused and upset.

[contracycle]

So there seems to be a fair amount of communication going on then.  Is this the first time you guys have been in the "lets all talk about what we play" boat?

OK so you got what sounds like a lot of aspirant GMS's.  I say, set up a schedule and try it out.  This is X's month to be GM, whatever.

Some speculative stuff has been bandied about to the effect that the group may be playing in a gamist manner and there may be a style/expectation clash; but we are not really in a position to diagnose and can only feed suggestions into your own analysis.

That said, I am mildly alarmed by the statement that "cody needs to learn to..."  RPG is fun not a lesson in life, IMO.. you really riusk getting up his nose in a big way if you compel a chnage for your reasons.  Why not have a conversation about wehat he gets out of healer characters?  Or play a game in which healing is not magical but real time, and see how he responds, what sort of character he develops in that context.

[Sage of Shadowdale]

Hey, Avery! Welcome to the Forge. Personally, I think it would be a very good idea to let others besides Eric and myself GM for a while, considering I come in second or third in the most frequent GM. Charly has had his FR campaign for AD&D 2nd Ed. ready for a while, and that would be interesting. Also, I have nothing against you GM/DMing either, and you guys will never get better if you never try it.

Considering your influences, Avery, you will have a gamist mindset. If you consider this to be "bad," the "cure" would be to try other styles of RPG play, or GM yourself. Also, if you wanted to totally quit the hack and slash style for a while, I would suggest that you at least temporarily stop going to the Monday D&D sessions. As for Cody and healing, I wouldn't ban it all together, but if we did do as contracycle said, and made magic, healing, etc. real time, it would definitely change Cody's opinions and attitudes about such characters.

For any new GMs our party may have, my interests in RPGing are basically to have a good story line, lots of puzzle-like situations where creative solutions can work, (I am an adventure gamer) a bit of combat, and a good share of freedom over my character's creation and what I do with him/her/it. :) If you wanted to put me in the GNS system (yeah, I know it doesn't exactly work this way,) I would come out as Narrativist/Simulationist/Gamist in descending order of my decisions, though the decisions between the first two would be very close.

I do believe we all (this goes for every RPGer out there) that we get too serious with our games sometimes, and of course, this creates conflicts. I try to keep the opinion constantly in mind of "it's just a game." Sure, it may be one I can spend a good 14+ hours a week messing with depending on the situation, but it is still just a game like basketball or football or anything else any other person might put their time into. Extreme obsession with anything is bad.

Charly has told me that he would like to do further posting, and he will, as soon as he gets his computer set up again. (He moved.) Throwing Jesse's ideas in here would also be of great help.

Cody in his MWing with us does have a very strong Simulationist element in it, and the way Cody portrays it many cause the similarities I saw between his style and yours. Cody has done a lot of wargaming, so he will be influenced by it, introducing a gamist element. I could be wrong, but Cody may be under the use of winners and losers in his campaigns, with him actually playing in a Character-Hostile manner. During play, it didn't exactly seem that way, but it is possible.

One final note: I was the one who gave Cody the information to get to the now-destroyed topic. I expected him to respond intelligently and maturely, but apparently that failed. (Please don't hurt me...) :) Also, Avery, you may want to run your posts through a spell checker before posting, I try to do it to correct any mistakes I've made, and I know Eric does on occasion and at other times really needs to. :)

Well, that's all for now. Mae govannen Avery.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi everybody,

Let's see if I have the usernames straight ...

Pyron = Eric
(damn, can't remember ... the first of you lot to post here, too) = Charly
Aragorn = Avery
Sage of Shadowdale = Jesse? or is that someone else?
IM Stormkahn = Cody

Correct me where I need it.

It may surprise you, but I am really happy to see all of you here. If you haven't already, please review contracycle's post, above, because he makes some very useful points (his real name is Gareth).

Best,
Ron

[Eric J.]

I'm really sorry Ron, and I would hope that you respond to my PM, if  you got it.

Anyway-

Pyron= Eric, main GM,
Scratchware= Charly.
Aragorn= Avery, has played in RPGs very little (by your standerds I would have played RPGs very little.  I'm not saying this to insult him, but to bring a clearer picture of my group)
Sage of Shadowdale= Anthony, auxillary GM (if he takes that title)
IM Stormkahn= Cody
?= Jesse, hasn't come onto the forge yet.

I'm sorry for the chaos that my group has brought to the Forge.  I really shouldn't have brought so many concerns to your humble websight, but the majority of us greatly respect here and have found everything here invaluable (directly or inderectly).  I hope that I can have some of my players become at least moderatelley active Forge members.  I will be more controlling from a moderative concern and keep what should be online online, and what is offline, offling.

Thank you for your understanding.

[Ron Edwards]

Chaos? Eric, you guys are providing everyone with a much-needed reality check. Plus demonstrating superb willingness to discuss your hobby and to work out better ways of having fun.

You even all self-moderated when you realized you should, without anyone making a big deal about it.

I'm a happy guy.

Best,
Ron

[Aragorn]

I believe that we have brought some chaos to the forge, but i do not believe i know everyone that posts here so i can't say that we are also giving people reality checks. I know that since posting here i have however been able to express my opinion about things a lot better then person to person.

Also can anyone help me with a question I have... I have been wanting to try a chaotic evil character in D&D, i was wondering if anyone can tell me exactly what a chaotic evil person does. I already know they are greedy, its always, me, me, me, for a chaotic person, but im not sure how i should make one, or what a good race and class one should be. Not to mention how one should act. Please answer my question.

             Aragorn

[Eric J.]

Hi Avery.  PM me.  I'd like to go into a messenger about what you ask.  It's rather complicated and I think that it would be easier to talk to me, rather than explain the situation over several posts in a new thread.

[Sage of Shadowdale]

I would say we brought chaos upon ourselves (and a few others,) and then somehow managed to fix it. Wow, don't we feel special? :) The Forge is a great environment for giving opinions about our great hobby, and it does help to express opinions well, especially when given intelligently.

I tend to stay away from evil allignments myself, you know, due to the evil, but if done in a decent manner it might work for a little while, but I have never seen anything like that work long-term.

[contracycle]

Back up a bit - WHY do you wan't to play an evil character?
Bear inb mind that alignment models may not be the best tool; Cyberpunk characters frex are almost all Chaotic Evil by D&D standards.  So, what is it that you want out of the character?