Natural Demons & Humanity

[jburneko]

This thought stems from the "Sorcerer without 'demons'" thread but I felt it was distinct enough to warent its own topic.

Since reading Sorcerer and Sword, I've been reading a lot of the source material for that supplement and I noticed a trend there.  In fact, it's something Ron even points out when dicussing the "other world."  What I've noticed is that Demons are treated as being "unnatural."  And unnatural seems to mean, that they are some how unsanctioned by a higher power and therefore have no right to exist.  I'm not entirely sure, if I'm describing the phenomenon correctly but that's as close as I get.

On a personal level, this doesn't sit well with me because I pretty much define "natural" as "that which exists."  Now, I'm not talking about something that is scientifically examinable or repeatable or any of that.  The real point is that if someone has a tangible experience of ANY kind, it is natural and therefore worthy of all the considerations we would give to such an experience.

Therefore, on a Humanity level, I have issues with the idea, that it's okay to treat a demon any old way you want and it won't cost you a dime in Humanity.

Here are some concrete examples.

Consider a demon whose Desire is Mischief and whose Need is To Be Stroked.  How is this different from my cat?  Really?  If my cat unplugs my alarm clock and I get in trouble at work that does not make it OKAY that I come home and beat it.  What, just because this so called "demon" exists outside the bound of our current understanding it's OKAY to hurt it when it does something "bad"?

Here's one a little more tied to a Humanity defintion.  It's from the Gothic Fantasy game with Humanity defined as Emotional Sanity.  It's the man with the undead bride.

The relationship is this: Levant loved Ionna.  Ionna was killed.  Levant "raises" Ionna as his undead bride.  Simple.  The reason Levant looses Humanity in the first place is from his unwillingness to accept Ionna's death.  Thus, Ionna is the perfect embodiment of that initial rejection.  She refuses to allow Levant to grow, for their relationship to grow and so forth.  It is an artifical state of perfection.  Or rather it's a self destructive state of perfection.

The problem I see is that Ionna is almost just as much a victim of Levant's anguish as he is.  Thus, if Levant were to banish her, that would be a good thing, but only if that banishment were a gentle acceptance of her initial loss.  For him to come home and beat her as some kind of Punishment for whatever, just doesn't seem right.

What this boils down to is that there are a few cases that have arrisen in games where I genuinely feel sorry FOR THE DEMON.  And I really really wanted to call for Humanity roll, for doing something like a Punish ritual.  But I've held back purely on the basis of rules.

What do you think is exactly going on in these scenes?  Has anyone else ever had this happen to them?

Just curious.

[szilard]

Therefore, on a Humanity level, I have issues with the idea, that it's okay to treat a demon any old way you want and it won't cost you a dime in Humanity.

I haven't read Sorceror and Sword, but given my reading of Sorceror, it largely depends upon what humanity and demons, in fact, are in your game. My general thought is that when you discuss this stuff pre-game, you should also discuss your concerns on these topics and come to some sort of consensus.

Consider a demon whose Desire is Mischief and whose Need is To Be Stroked.  How is this different from my cat?  Really?  If my cat unplugs my alarm clock and I get in trouble at work that does not make it OKAY that I come home and beat it.  What, just because this so called "demon" exists outside the bound of our current understanding it's OKAY to hurt it when it does something "bad"?

Well... also remember that Humanity is not necessarily equivalent to Morality. It may be OKAY to do all sorts of things that will cost you Humanity. It may not be OKAY to do many things that won't cost you Humanity.

The relationship is this: Levant loved Ionna.  Ionna was killed.  Levant "raises" Ionna as his undead bride.  Simple.  The reason Levant looses Humanity in the first place is from his unwillingness to accept Ionna's death.  Thus, Ionna is the perfect embodiment of that initial rejection.  She refuses to allow Levant to grow, for their relationship to grow and so forth.  It is an artifical state of perfection.  Or rather it's a self destructive state of perfection.

The problem I see is that Ionna is almost just as much a victim of Levant's anguish as he is.  Thus, if Levant were to banish her, that would be a good thing, but only if that banishment were a gentle acceptance of her initial loss.  For him to come home and beat her as some kind of Punishment for whatever, just doesn't seem right.

Well, remember that rolls are only necessary when there is an open question. In this case, I don't think I'd call for a Humanity loss check on the Banishment, since it seems like a humane thing to do...

What this boils down to is that there are a few cases that have arrisen in games where I genuinely feel sorry FOR THE DEMON.  And I really really wanted to call for Humanity roll, for doing something like a Punish ritual.  But I've held back purely on the basis of rules.

Rules are guidelines. I'd talk it over with the other players in your group before deviating from them, but if deviating from them makes the game more enjoyable, then I would go for it.

Stuart

[jburneko]

[quote="szilard]Well... also remember that Humanity is not necessarily equivalent to Morality.[/quote]

That may actually have cleared up the matter right there.  That's something I have always known, but have struggled to keep sight of.

I remember thinking of this situation that I had trouble coming to terms with.  Imagine Humanity being defined as: Staying true to your values.  Now imagine two orders of monks.  One order believes in sexual abstanance the other is believes in sexual revelry.  But wait!  When a monk from the first order indulges in sex he looses Humanity but when a monk from the second order abstains from sex he looses Humanity.  How can two opposite actions BOTH cause Humanity loss?

That's when I found my kneejerk assumption about Demons.  To me, when you introduce the concept of Demons into a world, you introduce an absolute morality.  And Demons are, by definition, in the know about what is truly evil and work to make you do those things.

Once you eliminate that assumption, however, you end up in the place I started with in this thread.  If Demons aren't really in the know about some absolute morality then why aren't they just some kind of other entity rather than something unnatural plaguing humanity?

But demons ARE in the know about something.  They know how to make us sell ourselves short (whatever that may mean), that's the Humanity definition.

That helps alot.  I'll think about it some more.

Jesse

[Ron Edwards]

Hi there,

Ah, I can't wait until Sex & Sorcery is available. The concept of plural Humanity is presented in detail.

And no, men do not have one type of Humanity and women another. Let's stomp that notion outta there right now. Nor am I proposing a relativistic take on morality, which renders Sorcerer play unworkable.

Anyway, Jesse, the idea is that, provided a plural view, a given act could provoke both a Humanity check and a Humanity gain roll.

Best,
Ron

[Bankuei]

Hi Jesse,

I find this example very interesting...

I remember thinking of this situation that I had trouble coming to terms with. Imagine Humanity being defined as: Staying true to your values. Now imagine two orders of monks. One order believes in sexual abstanance the other is believes in sexual revelry. But wait! When a monk from the first order indulges in sex he looses Humanity but when a monk from the second order abstains from sex he looses Humanity. How can two opposite actions BOTH cause Humanity loss?

If you consider that the original theme of Humanity in this case is being true to your values, in both cases its not opposite actions, but rather the same action in light of the premise: Violating your values.  

And instead of seeing the demons as unnatural, take the idea that sorcery is unnatural, not the demons.  As Ron put it, demons represent a dysfunctional relationship.

If you have a father and daughter, that's completely natural.  When you have a father and a daughter sleeping together and (ab)using and manipulatiing each other for power, well, that's unnatural.  If you have issues, that's natural.  If you let your issues become a split personality for power(Fight Club), that's not natural.

Here, the general moral compass is that in light of whatever value Humanity represents, demons are simply the Macguffin for violating it.  It's the sorcerer's decision to create an unnatural relationship in light of that.
The premise and theme of a game is totally based around whatever value Humanity represents, and the violation of it.

Demons don't even need to be sentient(although it certainly helps) to play their role.  I recall someone using technology as a demon a while back, and the bottle from The Gods Must Be Crazy is a perfect example of a neutral object that strains the values of Humanity.

Chris