What Indie RPGs came out in 2002?

[Jonathan Walton]

Hey, don't forget those indie games published by larger game companies.

Both Nobilis and Unknown Armies had 2nd Editions published in 2002.  Nobilis also saw the supplement A Game of Powers.

If White Wolf hadn't gutted the original card-based, player-empowering system from the English version of Engel, I might have fought to get that included, but as it is... :(

Later.
Jonathan

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Jonathan,

By the Forge definition, neither Unknown Armies nor Nobilis is an independent RPG.

That definition:

1) Creator has full executive control over the property.

2) Creator is the publisher - responsible for printing costs, art costs, etc. (Note that this does not preclude organizing venture capital or startup stocks.)

3) Profits are received and managed by the creator.

Nuance: small teams of creators are possible rather than a single person.

The gray areas concern distinct degrees of work-for-hire (e.g. Robin Laws on Hero Wars).

What is not a grey area: having a company publish your game, meaning paying for printing and other production costs, with the understanding or contract that the creator retains the IP and will share in the profits once the publishing company has recouped its costs. That is what Atlas does with Unknown Armies and what Hogshead did with Nobilis.

When Godlike was published by Hobgoblynn Press, it was not an independent game. It only became so when the game was dissociated entirely from Hobgoblynn and became the property of Dennis Detwiller's new company, Arc Dream Publishing.

Any debate on this issue needs to go to Site Discussion.

Best,
Ron

[quozl]

Ron, while I have no idea about the ownership status of Nobilis and Unknown Armies, Andy has stated in the rpg.net version of this thread that he is not necessarily using the Forge definition:

Yeah, the award is for Indie games, and while I'm pulling a lot of sources and inspiration from The Forge, I'm trying to distance myself a bit from them (just because I don't want to deal with the inevitable "Only Ron Edwards' buddies/The Forge Cult will win" remarks).

As for a definition of Indie, yeah, that's a hard one. I'm going to have to go for creator-owned (Open up the book and see that the game is copyright to One Person rather than a company. And if it is a company, finding out that that company is essentially run by one person, the person who wrote the game).

And yes, a number of "big company" games fall into this category. Ex: Godlike, depending on how you squint at it, would be included.

I'm still hammering out the details of the definition in relation to these awards (I'm not going for empirical definition, and I'm saddended that I won't be able to please everyone), which I should have by this weekend when everything goes live.

I just wanted to mention this so that others won't be dissuaded from mentioning games that may not fall under the Forge defintion but may fall under Andy's definition.

[Andy Kitkowski]

What Ron said-

Plus, for the purpose of these awards, Second Editions don't count :)

[quozl]

What Ron said-

Plus, for the purpose of these awards, Second Editions don't count :)

I stand corrected then.  I apologize for adding to the confusion.

[Andy Kitkowski]

I just wanted to mention this so that others won't be dissuaded from mentioning games that may not fall under the Forge defintion but may fall under Andy's definition.

Yeah, I'm going with my own definiton for these awards.  Thing is, "my own definition" has whole chunks lifted from "Ron's definition" (and I wholeheartedly thank him for helping me get my bearing straight in my definition).

In that blurb, below (which is actually a quote from Clint Nixon on the "rule-of-thumb" method of telling if a game is indie or not), even though it's a more conversational definition, it's still pretty much the same.

Still, though, games are going to be judged on a case-by-case basis on both:

1) Definition I provide and,
2) The Spirit of the award (also detailed in the FAQ I'm working on this very minute).

So I can see cases where games can't get in for a technicality involving #1, but being accepted because of anyway #2, and vice-versa (games where someone uses the wording of the definition to try to push a game in, even though it doesn't fit the spirit of the award).

-Andy

[Jürgen Mayer]

If White Wolf hadn't gutted the original card-based, player-empowering system from the English version of Engel, I might have fought to get that included, but as it is...

The original German version of Engel would count as an indie game, but it was published 2001.

[Andy Kitkowski]

I'm going through all my Indie RPG Awards-related threads and letting everyone know who subscribed to them that we're live!

http://www.rpg-awards.com

If you released a game last year, REGISTER IT!

If you released a game in the last two years, REGISTER TO VOTE!

If you haven't released any games, PLEASE HELP GET THE WORD OUT at other RPG forums, newsgroups, etc.

Thanks for helping me start this up, guys.  I really appreciate it.

-Andy

[Tim Gray]

Legends Walk! was published in August 2002. It's currently shareware.

[Gonster]

EABA from BTRC was published in 2002.  BTRC is pretty much just Greg Porter...

Lou