The Forge Archives

*paces while waiting for his full copy of Riddle*

I was pondering recently, specifically about social intrigue and such- given the deadlier nature of combat in Riddle, I rather expect my players to try politicing a bit more than they previously have.  Normally, however, 'social intrigue' means 'roll a contest of the Revelevant Social Traits'.

Which has very nearly as much to do with the way people intrigue and scheme as does hit points and THAC0s to do with actual combat.

Has anyone attempted to make a Riddle-like combat system- except instead of being for litteral combat, it's meant to model the feints, reputations, alliances and treacheries of the Court?

I like the general idea of an "intrique combat system" but I imagine we would mostly roll play things.

Mm.

The trouble with roleplaying court intrigue is the same as anything else, really- there's no system for determining success or failure, which means it defaults to GM fiat.

And while there's nothing really wrong with that (in some games it works exceptionally well), it could well be useful to have mechanics to help guide and govern such fun.

There's also the issue of players playing characters who are significantly different than themselves- the reason for having personality and intelligence traits in the first place.

Like you I have pondered the idea.  It works very well in Hero Wars where the exact same system used to fight an enemy army can be used to haggle with a merchant (if desired, there are shortcuts).

Riddle would be pretty easily adapted to such a thing also.  Instead of a Combat Pool you'd have a Social Pool using Soc instead of Reflex and Etiquette instead of Proficiency (or other attributes and skills depending on the specific nature of the challenge).  

From there the very basic dice pool combat sans maneuvers would be fairly easy.  The only question would be what to substitue for DTN and ATN.  I'd say an opponent's attribute such as Wit or WP and maybe occassionally MA would be a good choice.

Maneuvers would be largely free form descriptions of what one was trying to do...for instance if trying to impress the king to choose your plan over your rivals you might engage in a "move" that featured opposed rolls with MAs as the Target representing scoring points by displaying your superior knowledge of the situation.  Or vs the King's Wit if trying to bamboozle him, etc.

Certain types of Combat Maneuvers would translate well.  One could easily see the verbal sparring equivalent of a Stop Short...probably have witnessed it in fact.  Feint would be another one, as would the debate equivelent of a Beat attack (skewering your opponent's arguement before they've even had a chance to raise it).  One could even invent some new ones like a maneuver for "setting up a straw man" which if your opponent falls for it (perhaps with a roll off similiar to stopping short) he's tricked into wasting time addressing tangental points (the maneuver might set up a seperate pool which the opponent has to defeat first, before he can get back to defeating the main pool).

Damage would work identically, although one would probably eliminate Weapon Damage, Toughness, and Armor equivelents and go directly with Successes=Wound Levels.  The graphic descriptions of wounds would obviously depend on the situation, but the Shock and Pain effects would translate perfectly (renamed of course).  One defeats ones opponent when accumulated "pain" has reduced the pool to zero dice...whether defeat represents getting the lady in bed, convincing the king your plan is superior, or getting the merchant to give you a really good deal.

If one wanted to get real involved Blood Loss would even work.  Failing a "Blood Loss" roll would not result in dropping health, but an increase in bad reputation (if one was attempting to seduce a lady and suffered a "blood loss" effect in the process one just acquired a reputation for being a cad/heel/boor for instance).

If one were REALLY ambitious one could probably come up with a seperate damage table for different techniques..."Witty Repartee", "Scathing Satire", "Flattery" etc.   The Witty Repartee table might have wounds that did High Shock but low Pain damage.  The Scathing Satire might have wounds that do low shock and pain but high "Blood Loss" (i.e. the bardic ability of giving someone a bad reputation through satire).  Flattery might have low shock but high pain wounds.  That might be going farther then necessary, but it would be an interesting exercize.

Certainly not a system you'd use all the time (just like it isn't in Hero Wars) but for times when the players are trying to convince the people at the local thing to rally around their banner, or are on trial for their lives, or attempting to convince the king and queen to sponsor them on an expedition to get to China by sailing west....well you get the idea.

Quote from: ValamirRiddle would be pretty easily adapted to such a thing also.  Instead of a Combat Pool you'd have a Social Pool using Soc instead of Reflex and Etiquette instead of Proficiency (or other attributes and skills depending on the specific nature of the challenge).  

How would you convert the etiquette skill (or any other skill) to a prof or pool?  Perhaps an easy way would be to roll etiquette normally but have the result be an additional number of dice to the Social Pool.  Eg, success by 1= soc x 1.5, success by 3 = soc x2, success by 5+ = soc x3.  

You could also use this method to convert stategy and tactics skills to pools for mass combat.

NT

I'd probably just do simply 10-level or 12-level.

I hear "mini supplement"

Jake

Hi there,

If a person does settle down to some design for this idea, which I think is wonderful and perfect, he or she should make sure to read the game Lace & Steel very carefully. Its card-based duelling system is used identically for swords and repartee - down to the meaning of the "low line" vs. "high line" attack trajectories.

Best,
Ron

I forced myself to reread L&S recently.  Its actually pretty kick ass if you can force yourself to get past the Centaur and Fairy nonsense.

And here's a good note for those interested in Lace and Steel - it's being re-released as a PDF on RPGnow.com from what I understand.

Quote from: Ron EdwardsHi there,

If a person does settle down to some design for this idea, which I think is wonderful and perfect, he or she should make sure to read the game Lace & Steel very carefully. Its card-based duelling system is used identically for swords and repartee - down to the meaning of the "low line" vs. "high line" attack trajectories.

Best,
Ron

You could do worse than reading through the Dying Earth RPG as well - the entire system is based around "duelling with your wits" and combat is very much a second thought. Hard to run properly, but very fitting for the setting, and could be a useful resource.

Brian.

Start talking...each party drops a red dice or white dice. Red dice means they bring up the topic of debate first.

Double white...talking small talk and weather.

Red and white: Investigator declares how many dice he'll use from his RPpool to 'attack' and try to get to the point of things. Defender declares how many dice he'll use to defray and avoid the topic (if he went red, it means he spends his time denying and debasing the topic).

Even some of the moves sound right...fient, go from one topic them jump over to another to put them off balance, etc.

Though I'd say every round would take five or ten minutes.

Otherwise it could almost be the same...

WOW, I really like this idea and I LOVE the idea of this being a mini supplement.. My wife has always loved playing nobility but intrigues and politicking is something she cannot do. Like Mr. Stevens said:

QuoteThere's also the issue of players playing characters who are significantly different than themselves- the reason for having personality and intelligence traits in the first place.

My wife cannot "role-play" court life, in fact she is as socially adept as a stone. Having a system like this would help those who do not have really good acting or intrigue planning skills. If I could hand my group a "mini" supplement for social espionage I could FINALLY have a court game that my players could have fun in! No more useless planning and trying to come up with plots, witty banter, and other things my group is not very good at! I knew buying TROS was going to be worth my money. :)

Please Jake say it IS so!

P.S. Noon I LOVE that idea!!!!

P.S. Noon I LOVE that idea!!!! My wife walked in on me talking to one of my players on the phone about this post and asked excitedly "When is the book coming out so I can throw my white dice to have small talk with the nobles or my Red to ruin their lives?"

Quote from: MainboardMy wife walked in on me talking to one of my players on the phone about this post and asked excitedly "When is the book coming out so I can throw my white dice to have small talk with the nobles or my Red to ruin their lives?"

I think you'll find that what Jake meant was "That sounds great, somebody write it and I'll put it on the webpage". That's what a mini-suppliment usually means around here.

Brian.