Thoughts on d20/DnD

[spunky]

One of the appeals of D&D/D20, or for that matter, any class system, is that players do not have to think too much about their characters before they play.  They can sit down, roll their stats, choose one from collumn A and two from collumn B and start playing.  This allows them to learn about their character as they go, instead of making decisions about them up front.  

In some ways, this allows the unformed character to become a vehicle for their subconscious, as they haven't had to make any conscious decisions about what they will be, outside from class.

One of the pillars in my gaming group still hails D&D as his favorite system, and I think it's for this reason.  Todd thinks he's a bad role-player.  He's not, actually, but having a generic template to fall back on functions as a form of security blanket.  It must be said that over the past three years, we have dragged Todd from AD&D to D&D 3rd to GURPS: Fading Suns to Agone to Exalted, and he's done well in each.  I'm looking forward to "indoctrinating" him into TROS, though he a little pissed off at me for making him buy all those different rulebooks...

As far as the fanatacism of some D20 proponents, it reminds me of the reaction many within my gaming/geeking community have when they find out I use a Mac.  Maybe computer systems and gaming systems become things that, for whatever reason, we identify with, and feel threatened by alternatives.

Or maybe some people are French.*


*The previous sarcastic comment was make in the interests of humour and was not intended to cause emotional damage to persons residing or originating in, or descened from those residing or originating in, France.

[Mike Holmes]

I'm convinced that a lot of people who react that way to Macs (I'm one, too), and RPGs other than D&D, are either feeling like they're being attacked by the person enthusiastically describing the new mode, or have talked to people who feel this way, and are basing their information on what these people have said.

If you present a new game, say TROS, as a cool new game, instead of, "Blows the pants off D&D!", then I find that people are interested, and open-minded about it. When you make comparative statements many people's reactions are to be defensive. They feel that you are belittling their activity by saying that you've found something better. That they are missing the boat somehow.

The interesting thing about Macs is that they really aren't that different from PCs these days in any way. The differences are cosmetic at best. Still, people have these heated opinions on what's superior to what. Emotional investment. If someone still likes D&D, then somebody attacking it is bound to bug them, no? It's only people who come to a game like TROS because they are dissatisfied with D&D who are going to make such comparisons anyhow, right?

So, if you've come from D&D, might I sugest that when the subject comes up that you take a step back and reconsider making comparisons. Just in case the person you're conversing with is a D&D player. Because ranting against D&D may make them enemies of TROS. And then they breed more enemies.

And what good does that do?

Mike

[arxhon]

I've played ad&d since the old old days. I grew  tired of restrictive classes, levels, and cartoonish settings. I moved to WFRP, which provided for many of the requirements i wanted from a game.

Combats went from 5 rounds of "i roll to hit. i hit 3 times. i do 39 damage." to whack-chop "I hack his arm off at the elbow." which is a nice touch when you don't have to think this stuff up all the time.

I got rid of levels, which was nice, and I got careers, and a healthy selection of them, as well.

Characters went from being "I'm a thief. I steal." to "I used to be a coin clipper, but now i cat-burgle to finance slavery."

Levels and classes are too artificial and abstract for what i wanted from a game. As we all know, min maxing could be taken to berserk extremes.
This really eliminates a lot of the need for experience. Why give experience at all? To advance a character, of course. What a conundrum.....

I think the appeal of 3E is that it can be played fairly easily (not that TROS isn't) and satisfy those who want that kind of game. I'm guessing most 2E players transferred over to 3E because it was the latest thing, and now play it just because it's what they know works for them.

I gave 3E a playtest, and frankly, it wasn't what i wanted. I already had WFRP. So i played that instead.

The appeals of TROS are the combat system and the Spiritual Attributes. Everything else is just extra good gravy.

I suggest you do the following for your group. Make them a template character, say an armed guard, and give them SA: Drive: "Protect the King's family". Put them in a situation like: They are guarding the Princess' carriage on her return from the summer palace for her father the King and are ambushed by brigands. Then after a couple of combats, kill them.

[Jim DelRosso]

I like D&D.  I'll play it at the drop of a hat.

I like TROS.  I'll play it at the drop of the hat.

Liking both games is not an impossibility.  They have different design goals, and deliver different results (and, frankly, not often the results their detractors claim).

And I don't always want the same thing when I sit down to the table.  Which is why I'm grateful for a plethora of games.  :-)

Also, I agree wholeheartedly with Mike's point.  When you're selling folks on TROS, don't slam D&D to do it.  A, you're likely to turn off gamers who could really end up digging TROS; and B, you don't need to: TROS stands damn fine on its own.

[Bankuei]

Right all.  I think we can all agree that both games have their merits for what they are.  Plus I think we can all agree on the fairly obvious differences in play(TROS=more deadly, more powerful magic, D&D=more game like play, etc.).

But what is interesting to look at is the difference in play and style.  I find that TROS is very good at making "Story Now" as Ron put it.  The fact that the characters are very competant, and the SA system makes each session an experience in the GM and the players pushing Story Now.  D&D is built around the idea of "building up" or earning story, which I think leads to a lot of meandering play.

Any thoughts?

Chris

[Mordacc]

Very true, and i dont know about everyone else but DnD also seems to be built for a slightly younger crowd.  not that adaults cant play it, but it still does seem catered to kids who are looking for a more arcade style game, such as minimal cursing, not much blood/gore, never a mention of "mature topics".  Am i the only one who thinks this?

[arxhon]

Well, the game certainly walks the line of happy mc slashy, but i will be honest. It really appeals to a (large) specific group. I'm fine with that.

I've played games where actual characterization happened, and hacking was not the agenda. I can't say i hate D&D. I played it for 9 years. I moved on because there were things about the system that started bothering me, and i found other games.

[Mordacc]

thats exactly what i think.  i dont hate the system by any means, its mainly a few things that bothered me.  i also found that as third edition came out, the number of min/maxers and powergamers rose dramatically, which, although min/maxing to some degree is fine, has gotten very out of control.

[Vanguard]

Valamir and Bankuei's intitial posts express my feelings regarding TROS perfectly.

Irregardless of what reasons people want to play an RPG (cool roleplay, wicked storytelling, hack'n'slash, powerplaying) a system is going to have an effect.  TROS provides incentives for storytelling and heroic-realistic combat over hack'n'slash.  If that's what you're looking for, play TROS.  It'll work better.  

As stated above, people are going to naturally gravitate to what the system rewards them for.  In D&D, players will concentrate on kills and XP. WHo doesn't want their characters to progress? That will always be an integral aspect of RPGing. As it is in life.  Again, as stated by others, it is far easier in TROS to get PCs caring about the plot, rather than having to railroad them into it and eliminating the appeal of any other course of action.  WHy should I rescue the Princess? There's only three lvl 5 guards watching over her.  I'll get far more XP taking out that orphanage?


So yeah, if u want storytelling over hack'n'slash. Go for TROS. It's not that TROS is a necessarily better game. But it will contribute far more to that kind of game.

However, I do actually reckon that TROS is a better game.  (grins sheepishly)  Taking on board those points made above concerning getting D&D players into TROS.  I agree with that.  Far better to cajole and encourage than flame them for playing an inferior game.  It will only end up making them defensive and hostile.

But we're all enlightened individuals here ;)

What I reckon makes TROS better is the choice of actions. As stated above, it's not just a case of fight or run. The player can actually influence the outcome of a fight.  He/she's decisions matter.  In effect, The game becomes cinematic. And even better, a PC is encouraged to fight those battles which matter.  He will avoid undue conflict like he would in real life. But unlike real life - kinda - taking out the bad guy becomes that much less uncertain.  In TROS, you're rewarded for being heroic (even if it is villainous heroism).


I realise that I haven't actually added anything new here. Just ranted on like some madman on speed. But I suppose I was just trying to amalgamate all those valid points raised by my fellow TROS fans.  And what an articulate and tolerant bunch of people we are, may I add.  It's been a joy to see such cleverly stated and altruistic points discussed in these forums.  

There may yet be hope for the human race - if only everyone could play TROS and watch the simpsons....


Take care, all you shiny happy people - and in particular to MR Norwood; our new messiah.  

All hail Emperorl Norwood! All hail Emperor Norwood!

[Mordacc]

While i do think the worship of Jake is a little...wierd, i do agree with the simpsons part completely :p

[Brian Leybourne]

i do think the worship of Jake is a little...wierd

You mean you're not making weekly blood sacrifices to Jake? The rest of us are.

How did this guy slip through the cracks, Jake? I think we need to send "the boys" around.

Brian.

[Jake Norwood]

Take care, all you shiny happy people - and in particular to MR Norwood; our new messiah.  

All hail Emperorl Norwood! All hail Emperor Norwood!

and, uh...

i do think the worship of Jake is a little...wierd

You mean you're not making weekly blood sacrifices to Jake? The rest of us are.

How did this guy slip through the cracks, Jake? I think we need to send "the boys" around.

Brian.

What's his address again...damn...we better fix that ;-D

Uh, if I'm getting worshiped, I need a cult-leader's salary. And the chicks ;-)

Jake

[Brian Leybourne]

Uh, if I'm getting worshiped, I need a cult-leader's salary. And the chicks ;-)

Jake

Just remember - take the poison cordial *last*. Too many cult leaders make the mistake of drinking before their followers, after which the followers come to their senses and go home.

Of course, in this case it's not cordial but slow-working contact poison smeared on pages 12-17 of the manual. Those of you who bought the earliest edition of the book should be starting to feel the effects any day now.

Brian.

[Mordacc]

Well, despite the interesting theories or "Norwoodism", i still think youre all crazy.

[Callan S.]

Now im not trying to start some d20 flame here but i also tried posting something on ROS on their boards and i was quickly and violently shot down.  im still not really sure why they got violent with me but whatever.  And yes im also running my last d20 campaign (at least for a looooong while) and i cant wait to throw away or give away all my d20 books for ever.

Where is that shot down post. Their search engine only lets me look at one forum at a time. Which one did you post in?