Thoughts on d20/DnD

[Mordacc]

Ok, since im assuming im not the only one who has..."evolved" shal we say, from d20 or DND to TROS, im curious as to your reasons for switching systems.  My personal reason is that DnD simply didnt fulfill my need for an rpg with a feeling of realism to it.  Simple as that.  

ALso if you have any random thoughts on DnD or d20 feel free to post here.

Im especially curious to see what Jake and crew have to say.

Thanks as usual,
Mordacc

[Brian Leybourne]

D20 bah humbug, that's why.

Any system where experience = immunity from repeated sword blows (to a point, admittedly), is not a good system IMO :-)

Brian.

[prophet118]

i personally play more d&d d20 games, han TROS... no one here really cares for it... and i can count the number of people that i know who have the book, on 3 fingers...me and 2 other guys...oh well though..

as for switching, i have yet to do it, but then none of my groups play 3rd ed straight out of the box...in fact the only real problem with d20 games, is the original 3rd ed..there are certainly aspects that are not realistic, but that happens in any fantasy roeplaying game, yes, including TROS.

[Brian Leybourne]

D20 bah humbug, that's why.

Any system where experience = immunity from repeated sword blows (to a point, admittedly), is not a good system IMO :-)

Brian.

Heh, replying to my own post :-)

I should probably admit that I am currently running a D20 campaign, which has been going so long it would be too hard to convert to TROS, but am also running a TROS campaign and this will be the LAST D20 one.

Brian.

[Mordacc]

Now im not trying to start some d20 flame here but i also tried posting something on ROS on their boards and i was quickly and violently shot down.  im still not really sure why they got violent with me but whatever.  And yes im also running my last d20 campaign (at least for a looooong while) and i cant wait to throw away or give away all my d20 books for ever.

[Bankuei]

Now im not trying to start some d20 flame here but i also tried posting something on ROS on their boards and i was quickly and violently shot down. im still not really sure why they got violent with me but whatever.

Conditioning, man.  You spoke against the holy scripture.  Remember, D20 promised to be the One True Way (TM) of gaming, able to do all things for all people.  No one may point to the emporer's nakedness.

(Carefully opens case, cleans and folds up sarcasm, places it gently in, pats it lovingly, closes case.)

Ok, mini-rant over.  Something that would be of interest would be a look at the difference folks may have noticed in gameplay between TROS and D20.  

I personally have found that the SA's work very well at getting players to "do stuff" without having to be prodded, railroaded, or pushed into doing things.  Second, I have found that the action and pacing tends to be much more lively, and a lot less mundane stuff eating up the time(such as searching or buying stuff).  Third, SA's don't make players foolish in the face of danger, but they are certainly less overprotective of their characters.  I think actually having more control in combat than, "I fight/I run" makes the players a little more secure in controlling their character's destiny.  Also, the SA's have worked much better for everyone to "get to know" a character in play than alignments have.

Has anyone else had similar experiences?

Chris

[Valamir]

Spot on Chris.  While some naysayers disagree (largely for reasons that I think mark them as truly unique in the world of gaming) most gamers are going to respond to whatever the system of rewards the game provides tells them to do.

In D&D you get experience for killing stuff <cue cries of protests from D&D players about DMs awarding XPs for anything they assign a CR too...ok are they done...good>  You get the vast majority of your XPs for killing stuff.  Unlike say Donjon, D&D does not provide a means for the players to set up their own monster pursuits.  So most D&D play (with some noteable exceptions, but I stand firmly buy "most") is about players waiting for the DM to present them with a series of targets that need to be killed.

TROS's experience system is SA based.  Now, take the same player who wants to turn his starting dude into "master ass kicker of the realm".  What he's going to do is look at his sheet and say...hmmm...I need 5 more points to get my next proficiency level...I have an SA of 'Hatred of Duke Gloucester'.  Hmm, I guess its time to head to Gloucester and start feuding with this duke".

In other words instead of waiting for the GM to one day say "You happen to find yourself in Gloucester where the evil duke resides" and then try and find some convoluted way of hooking the PCs into caring, the players are going out and seeking out this guy on their own.  Because if they don't (or don't follow some other SA) they don't get to "level".

Plus the TROS combat system is just a so much more elegant way of giving players control over their characters fate in combat.  Every attempt to make D&D into something more than a battle of attrition where you can predict the outcome by comparing the odds to hit with average damage over the course of a number of rounds has resulted in painfully slow and complex systems.  Anyone remember the "Tome of Combat" or whatever it was called from 2e...what a nightmare.

[Mokkurkalfe]

Ahem. I have, in fact, never played DnD. The closest I've come to it is Baldur's Gate.

[cresotko]

The biggest advantage of TROS over d20 is a realistic chance of dying.  With the addition of hit points at every level with d20 and the insane amount of magical protection, you can quickly (if you have min-maxers in your game) become almost impossible to hit, let alone kill.  I like making players think about how to get out of a situation alive instead of automatically assuming that they can muscle their way out of anything.

[prophet118]

you guys of course assume that the D&D players have no imagination, or forethought in creaing a beleivable character.. granted these things dont get you awards under the base system.. but thats not the point, the point is fleshing out your characters... course the few players (from various systems) that i have talked to about TROs, seem to hate the spiritual attributes, most chalk it up to just a way that they have to play..more straight jacket than alignment from D&D......but i suppose im probbaly in the minority

[Mike Holmes]

you guys of course assume that the D&D players have no imagination, or forethought in creaing a beleivable character.. granted these things dont get you awards under the base system.. but thats not the point, the point is fleshing out your characters... course the few players (from various systems) that i have talked to about TROs, seem to hate the spiritual attributes, most chalk it up to just a way that they have to play..more straight jacket than alignment from D&D......but i suppose im probbaly in the minority

Write in English, please.

Are you saying that SAs straightjacket the player (I'm really not sure that's what you're saying)? If so, then you've missed the point of TROS which is to make a character with SAs that you want to play. As opposed to D&D alignment which is just an arbitrary limiter on freedom that players are forced to take. Note that one is punished in D&D for ignoring alignment, whereas one is rewarded for using SAs. Very different strategies involved, and very diferent design goals.

Nothing wrong with D&D or players who like it. But those who play D&D in a manner that goes against it's design, a design that promotes exactly what people here have said it promotes, are "swimming upstream", as we say. The quesiton that I'd have for them is to ask whether or not they've played TROS or not.

We've all played D&D (even Mokky; Baldur's gate is close enough to know what D&D is like).

Mike

[prophet118]

whats not english about what i typed?.....so i had a few misspelled words, dont be a self proclaimed critic....

i am not saying anything, i am saying what other players i have talked to, say... as for my opinion.... well we'll just leave that as a mystery.

as for the baldurs gate thing.....no thats not "close enough"....a computer game isnt the same thing.

[Mike Holmes]

I asked the question because what you've written above is ambiguous. It could mean many things. It was the lack of complete sentences that made it ambiguous, hence the English comment.

But let me be more clear, then.

Are you saying that these players that you've talked to are saying that Alignment is less of a straightjacket than SAs? Or did they say something else that I'm not getting from your post?

And what does

most chalk it up to just a way that they have to play

mean? What does the "it" refer to?

Mike

[Valamir]

Prophet, I think the rampant use of ...stream of conciousness clauses... in your last couple of posts is making it difficult to follow.  Parentheticals lose their effectiveness when the entire paragraph is nothing but parentheticals.  

From what I gleaned from your post (and I had to read it about 3 times) is that you are suggesting that the people you've met who dislike the SA system in TROS dislike it because they interpret it as restrictive, i.e. dictating they're characters behavior.

I'm curious, since nothing could possibly be farther from the truth, do you have any idea how they managed to arrive at such a conclusion?  In discussing it with them did you point out why this wasn't the case, and if so, how'd they respond.

[prophet118]

what i was saying, is that the people i have talked to, likened the SA's as more retrictive than alignment. I let them read the description of each one, and asked them what they thought.