Early Donjon Thoughts and Questions

[dunlaing]

I recently bought Donjon and think it's very cool. I'm just waiting to actually run it and have lots of fun with it. I did have a couple of questions about it though:

1. What constitutes 1 fact?
If someone listens at a door and says "I hear 6 goblins, they've got a pregnant hostage and they're going to eat her." Is that:
2 facts: a group of goblins and a hostage
4 facts: a group of goblins, there are six, they have a hostage, and they intend to eat her
6 facts: a group of goblins, there are six, they have a hostage, she's a woman, she's pregnant, and they intend to eat her
or some other number of facts? Or is it up to the DM and players?

2: Why doesn't magic require an attack roll?
I noticed some threads here about magic being overpowering and it looks like one reason is that it doesn't require an attack roll. I know it has the Gather Magic Power step, but that's always at a constant difficulty, unlike attacks.

[Zak Arntson]

I can't remember the answer to the magic question, but when I've played with facts, we generally don't get into the nitty-gritty of numbering things. It's really something to hash out with your group before play.

For example, if I were DMing, I would interpret it as three facts:
1 fact: "Goblins behind the door, six of 'em!"
1 fact: "They've got a pregnant hostage!"
1 fact: "They're going to eat her!"

[Wulf]

1. What constitutes 1 fact?

Excellent question, I'm not too sure. generally, I define it as a definition of things previously undefined that don't require die rolls. So if you can see a living Goblin, you can't define it as dead.

If someone listens at a door and says "I hear 6 goblins, they've got a pregnant hostage and they're going to eat her." Is that:
2 facts: a group of goblins and a hostage
4 facts: a group of goblins, there are six, they have a hostage, and they intend to eat her
6 facts: a group of goblins, there are six, they have a hostage, she's a woman, she's pregnant, and they intend to eat her
or some other number of facts? Or is it up to the DM and players?

Well, first of all, why assume a pregnant hostage is female? Ever see ALIEN? What the players don't define is the DMs delight...
However, in this case I'd say it's 3, Goblins, hostage, intent to eat. I would allow the 6 Gobbos as part of the definition of Goblin. Actually, I just did on Saturday... they had treasure chests instead of a hostage though.

2: Why doesn't magic require an attack roll?

Good question. I've certainly found magic casters to be rolling too many dice for my liking. Unfortunately, not all magic 'attacks' in the same way, nor would the spells use the same attack roll. Too complicated to adjudicate on the fly. You could increase Gather magic to Medium difficulty.

Wulf

[Clinton R. Nixon]

The number of facts really depends on the group and GM - some might allow it as three, or some might get it up to six. Personally, I'd rule it as 5: "a group of goblins", "six of 'em", "hostage", "pregnant", "eat him/her." And, as the GM, I'd definitely screw with the players about the pregnant thing. This sort of re-interpretation is exactly what the GM should be doing in Donjon. Imagine the GM as a genie hell-bent on mis-interpreting the spirit of the players' wishes.

As for magic - turn the gathering dice difficulty up to Medium if you find them too powerful. I find that their weakness in combat - smack one while he's gathered magic power and see what happens - makes up for the power difference, but I've seen several people feel otherwise.

[Mike Holmes]

Huh, I'd have charged only two. Six goblins, pregnant hostage. Not much more really to say. Of course they intend to eat the hostage... that's what goblins do. That's as redundant as saying there's a wind, and it's made of air. Just adds flavor. I tend to think of facts as physical stuff. Intent doesn't mean much, as the GM will change intent right off anyhow. Sure they intend to eat her, but as soon as you attack, they'll intend to defend themselves first. OTOH, if they had said, "And they are eating her alive." That would cost another fact as it means that the Players have an immediate physical problem in addition to the defeating the goblins and rescuing the pregnant man.

Which all goes to say that it comes down to how the group sees it. You're the GM. If you think a player is trying to sneak a fast one on you, just say no. Otherwise, go with the flow. It's more fun that way.

OTOH, if a player says he spending on stuff like the other four details, because he's trying do ditch facts, then let him. No use trying to force too much detail from a player by saying that something is too narrow to be a fact.

Mike

[Wulf]

The number of facts really depends on the group and GM - some might allow it as three, or some might get it up to six. Personally, I'd rule it as 5: "a group of goblins", "six of 'em", "hostage", "pregnant", "eat him/her."

What I found interesting about this idea when my own group did it on Saturday was, what if they choose too POWERFUL a group of opponents? Too weak is easy - I gave them 5 goblins (level 1) and a Goblin War Commander (level 4). Outnimbered 5:1 in the end (once the players realised they weren't hurting him as much as the normal Gobbo's could hurt THEM, and set about dealing with them first) he lived up to his rep.

What if your level 1 party 'summons up' a group of 6 Ogres (level 4 from your Bestiary)? How would you deal with it? Personally, it's why I don't count numbers as a separate fact. I'll adjust to suit.

Wulf

[Clinton R. Nixon]

What if your level 1 party 'summons up' a group of 6 Ogres (level 4 from your Bestiary)? How would you deal with it? Personally, it's why I don't count numbers as a separate fact. I'll adjust to suit.

I either quickly make the Ogres lower level than planned (I originally wrote all the bestiary creatures as level 1, and thought of putting them out that way) or make them figure a way out of the situation that didn't involve combat.

Incidentally, that's why I count numbers as a separate fact - to prevent the players from screwing themselves too bad.

[Bankuei]

Of course, there's nothing that says the facts have to be in your favor.  If summoning up monsters may not be in the players' best interest, the GM can always make one of the monsters' rolls to state facts which may make the monsters more managable.

For example, take a Skill like Dodge or something similar the Goblins may have, and on their first successful roll, transfer one or more of the successes to add, "But they don't dodge so well, since they're still wearing manacles for some reason..."  You could also do stuff like this to make injured monsters, drunk, or else have them bumble and accidently do stuff like knock stuff over on themselves, break their weapons, etc.

This is, of course, if you feel like going light on players.  If players are smart and using their facts right, they should be doing that kind of stuff to monsters anyway.

Chris