Spears

[Sneaky Git]

I've got a quick question concerning the translation of a real-world weapon into TRoS terms.

The citizens of Helena (an interesting analog of Classical Greece) fight in close order (a phalanx, of sorts, I assume)with spears, short swords, and shields.  As such, I would like to base their kit on historical references to the panoply of Greek Hoplites.

I'm all set with the hoplon (an oversized round shield - 8kg!), full helm, (linen, leather, or bronze) cuirass, bronze greaves, and short sword.  My confusion/difficulty centers around the long thrusting spears the Hoplites wielded one-handed (either overhand or underhand, depending on which school of thought to subscribe to).

To continue, according to contemporary sources, the primary offensive weapon of the Greek hoplites (circa 5th century BCE) was a heavy thrusting spear that typically ranged from 7-9 feet in length.  Unlike Homeric spears, it was designed to be a thrusting weapon, and was not thrown.  Which is fortunate, because it strikes me that a weapon of that length would be heavy.

Anyway, on to the question.  The standard long spear in TRoS fits this weapon nicely, except for the fact that it needs to be wielded with two hands...with the short spear, a meter or so shorter, offering a one- or two-handed grip.  I know that it is my game, but is it appropriate to allow one-handed use of the long spear?  Or does this fly in the face of common sense?

I'm interested in hearing your opinions.


Christopher Islaub

[arxhon]

It sounds reasonable to me.

Make them Length:Long and damage ST+1 , as the difference between using a weapon 2 handed and 1 handed is only 1 damage. Voila! Instant hoplite spear! :-)

[Mokkurkalfe]

Yeah, and raise the DTN alot.

[arxhon]

Good point. I had forgotten about that.

The DTN is already 8, so perhaps 9 or maybe 10, depending on your preference. Higher than 10, well....certainly possible. I can't imagine it's very easy to parry with a spear used in this fashion. Of course, I'm not the ARMA guy. :-)

[Sneaky Git]

Yeah, and raise the DTN alot.

Good point.  I'm thinking that when used with a shield, they were damn near useless as a defense.  Besides, when fighting in a phalanx, your job was to attack the guy on your right...and hope that your mates were doing the same.

Chris

[MrGeneHa]

Of course, Greek tactics and armament were constantly evolving.

So if you go for a later time period, most troops might have a longer spear (12 ft.), a lighter shield, and lighter armor (quilted linen instead of stiff layered linen).  (Circa 390 bce).  Some would still have the 'Classic' panoply of equipment you've described.  The spear is almost pike length, but not nearly as heavy and scary.

Here are my best guesses.  Very IMHO.
12' Spear 1H V. Long ATN 8 DTN 10 St P damage
Quilted Linen Cuirass AV 1
Layered Linen Cuirass AV 2
Leather Cuirass AV 2
Bronze Cuirass AV 3
Bronze 'Corinthian' Helm AV 4 CP and Per Mod -2 (Classic helm)
Bronze 'Illyrian' Helm AV 3 CP and Per Mod -1 (open faced helm)

Do you consider Alexander and the Macedonians to be Greek?  The 'sarissa' spear is about 15 ft long and used two handed.  It's a true TRoS pike.  The shield is maneuvered clumsily with one fore arm and a neck strap.  The 'Thracian' helmet is equivalent to a Corinthian helmet.  They would have layered linen armor and bronze greaves.

In TRoS, they would be scary Hellena hillbillies with odd accents.  They have excellent cavalry, unusual for Hellena.

Thracian Shield (TN 7 or higher!) AV 6 CP Mod -1 Move -2
If one arm is devoted to its use, this shield is a normal round shield.

After that, Rome ruined everything for the Greeks.

Gene Ha

[svenlein]

how does one handle people who held their spear with 2 hands, but who still had a shield on their arm?

Would it just offer passive defense when your in hand to hand?
Would it provide normal shield defense when being attacked by missiles while not in hand to hand?

Scott

[toli]

I think I would treat it as a piece of armor covering the left arm and chest and possible more depending on the size.

NT

[contracycle]

This is IMO likely not the right question.  A pike like this is clearly not working on the same dynamic as two fighters dancing about with swords.  I mean, can you really aim this weapon?  Can you "duel" with it?  I doubt it myself, its just that when its used in its appropriate context, and there are masses of you and masses at them, the duelling dyamic is not at play.  You push, they push... debate rages as it exactly how/if that happens, precisely, but never mind.

IMO, duelling systems like TROS can't be smoothly translated into massed battle systems, because the dynamics of mass battles focuss greatly on the masses.  A shield wall is not just getting a defensive bonus, its integrity as a line is much more important.  IMO, mass battles especially those feauturing this very specialised and organised sort of behaviour need to be governed by rather different rules.

[toli]

I would certainly agree with that point of view.  I would guess that it would be pretty hard to hit someone with a pike in a one on one.  Once you were inside it, it would be usless.

Mass combat tactics are not easily translated to small scale systems.

[Jake Norwood]

Actually, pikes were used in duelling as well. I forget the source, but I'll try to dig it up.

Jake

[svenlein]

well here is a reference:
http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/XVIIPike.htm
but i don't know how long the "pike" this is referring to is, and that is an important quesion when talking about spears, long spears, and pikes.  From the descriptions i might call these TROS Long spears (7-10), but from the last picture i might say TROS pike (14').

Scott

[toli]

Actually, pikes were used in duelling as well. I forget the source, but I'll try to dig it up.

Jake

Well, I'm wrong all the time (according to my wife), so that's nothing new.  NT

[Anthony I]

Actually, pikes were used in duelling as well. I forget the source, but I'll try to dig it up.

Jake

Di Grassi covers pike dueling

[contracycle]

Actually, pikes were used in duelling as well. I forget the source, but I'll try to dig it up.

I'm aware of the debate, but I don't buy it myself.  I have a set of arguments, as everyone does, but I'll not go beyond mentioning that "push of pike" is a term from the English civil war.  As I said, I acknowledge the debate - but I think the principle still holds, that specialist corodinated war-fighting activities which are deliberately designed for use en mass, should be governed by separate rules.  IMO.

Note: I understand the pike duelling argument to still be a battlefield one; i.e. that the two sides ditch momentum until theres a long line of "pike duels".  Either way, whe di grassi refers to "single combat", IMO this is very unlikely to be one individual against one other in isolation.  In a mass, its hard to flank the pike wielder.