Function System: Designing Problems

[ghoest]

So, I've been working on my own system that is modularized and can easily be modified or redesigned if needed (you can find my designing notes at www.indigames.com under the indi game announcement section in the forums).... I've been working on it for the past month... I've been looking through the posts in this section and been reading more indi gaming material and it seems to me that everything is becoming more and more inbred and we're not pushing out original sytem material anymore... I'm just as guilty I guess, i feel like everything I'm doing is getting more and more influienced by GURPS adn D20, although i can vouch for my reflexive combat system as being very original (at least I think)...
I guess the question at hand is, as an independent RPG community, where does the fine line of abstract originality and real functionalism get crossed (in abstract originality, think way to many charts/ diceless systems that lose appeal because you don't have randomness, these games are original but their appeal is limited to the peopel who can appreciate it, not the everyday gamer) in game design and is that line passed to often or much less often? Are we becoming a counter-cultural Scene that's so influenced/saturated by/with our mainstream counterpart that we 're losing our originality element? Or, am I just going mad?

[Mark Johnson]

Are you passionate?

It sounds like you are dealing with creative block.  Often times when I am "blocked" I start to fret intellectually.  You can literally lose yourself in a mountain of theory and possiblity while losing sight of your real aim.  A "designing problem" may simply be one that you create for yourself.

What excites you about what you are working on?  Develop that and experiment.  Post concrete examples here and get input.  The rest of the universe will take care of itself.

Thanks,
Mark J.

[ghoest]

yes, I am very passionate about my work... I'm not going through so much of a "block" but an anxiety or self doubt that my system is too underdeveloped or takes too much form other systems that I've read...
The system is designed to be a generic system much like FUDGE/ D20/ GURPS and it will all be opensourced so anyone can take from the system and use it in their games, however the systemis also create to be fluid and flexible in the sense that everything is based off of different modules such as Combat module, Skill module, Class module.. these modules are standalone and don't require any other module to make it work correctly.. this is designed that way, so that any designer who has a better idea for a module can throw out a module and replace it with his/her module... the only solid part of the system is the base attribute system, which is composed of three attributes that are assigned various die (1d6, 1d8, 1d10) the attributes are Ki/ Mind/ Agility representing the metaphysical aspects of the humaniod to the physical and solid aspects of the humaniod...
 My problem is I want something truly original and not something ripped from another system... the system is inspired by westwood's D6 system, Whitewolf's D10 system and D20 system...

[Mark Johnson]

What does your game facilitate that current games don't sufficiently facilitate?  Modularity does have its appeal.  But if you make the modules all optimized to support a base type of play experience, you probably will come up with the type of game you are looking for.

I have been trying to sign on to indigames.com to look at your ideas, but I have been having trouble getting logged in.

Thanks,
Mark

[ghoest]

are you beyondalive?  if so, you could ahve possibly entered the wrong email address and didn't get the activation link... I activated that account so you shouldn't have a problem now...

I think one of the very nice aspects of the system right now is the ability to alter the rules without hindering the gameplay or having to rehaul the system... but besides that, it facilitates anything really, however the combat system/ skill system module I'm working on is set to facilitate martial arts orientated fighting along with ranged based fights (guns, laser whatever).

[Mike Holmes]

Hi ghoest,

I'm tempted to rant at you. I have to say that I'm not seeing the problem at all. I think this community puts out an astonishingly high rate of very original, and very playable games (I've personally played most of them). What published games are you looking at that seem to have this "originality" problem?

I don't want to be insulting, but this really sounds like a case of projection. If you want help with your system, I think you can find it here. But I'm not sure what use it is maundering over whether or not your system as it exists is original or not. For one thing, it's going to be hard for us to comment on it unless we see it. For another, who cares? I mean isn't the important thing that it's fun to play?

Sorry if that sounds harsh,
Mike

[ghoest]

Okay, perhaps it's my problem then... perhaps i am approaching the indigame design with the wrong perspective...[/b]

[Mike Holmes]

Well, actually, I'm guessing that you're just too worried. What you've got is probably just fine. There's no reason that an independent game even has to be particularly original. Just has to be fun to play.

That said, if you want to be original, there's no way for us to comment unless you post what you have somewhere. Is there some way we can see what you have so far? Or do you at least have a synopsis of the game that we can read?

Otherwise what sort of info are you looking for here?

Mike

[ghoest]

I'll post the content I've wrote later tonight :)

[Jack Spencer Jr]

(in abstract originality,..(snip)... these games are original but their appeal is limited to the peopel who can appreciate it, not the everyday gamer)

I think I see where your problem lies: in the phrase "everyday gamer"

Let's treat this like a math problem.

There's the whole population of the world X. A portion of this population has a possible interest in roleplaying Y. The remainder does not Z ( X - Z = Y ) Of this group Y a portion have never actually tried roleplaying A, a portion had tried roleplaying but did not find anything that interested them B, and the rest are the "everyday gamers" you refer to C ( Y - A - B = C )

The problem is the "RPG industry," as it were, keeps making games to please C completely ignoring or denying the existence of A and B. This is one of the goals of the Forge Trying to reach all of Y not just C.

[ghoest]

And I present to you, The Function System:


I broke down the basic 3 Attributes of the characters to (mind you this is to be used in future and modern RPGs):
Ki (Chi whatev)is the spirt, charisma, aura, whatever other supernatural/ metaphysical crap there is to it...
Agility: Fitness of Body, Strength, Basically the physical traits of the character...
Mind: Mental Processes, Thought, Awareness, Knowledge, anything pertaining to being smart and aware...
each of these attributes are assigned one of either: 1d10, 1d8, or 1d6... players have a choice to add or remove pips from the dice so the combinations could look like this also... 1d10, 1d10, 1d4... or... 1d12, 1d10, 1d2... ect...

from here we break down into the sub-attributes... Precision, Dodge, Arcana Knowledge, Ancient Knowledge ect...
these will all be determined by combinations of attribute dice rolls.... such as...
precision = (Agility Roll + Mind Roll)...


These rolls will all be against either another roll or a difficulty factor set by the GM

Combat
combat will be resolved using the model below:
Combat Start-

-Determine how many combat moves you get:
-(Agility + class base) roll determines this

-Inititive (determined by an agility roll, highest roll wins)

--Attack or perform an action
-this costs as many combat moves as defined in the action you are performing

---If an attack was performed, then the attacker rolls an attack roll defined by what weapon the character is using and the roll is compared to an (agility + mind) roll, rolled by the defender... If the attack roll is higher, the attack suceeds, if lower, the attack fails...
If the attack succeeds, roll for damage defined by the weapon, if the attack fails, the defender has a chance to counterattack with his weapon, gaining dominance in the attack... The former attacker rolls only an agility dice for his defense against the counterattack...

----Once this ROUND is resolved,
If it is MELEE combat, the combat is repeated with the assumtion that the player who attacked succesfully last won the intiative and the initiative rolling phase is skipped... For example If Bob the half elf, street cop succesfully attacked Jane the human Paranormal investigator, Bob would keep the initiative in the next round of combat... However, if Bob's attack failed and Jane succesfully counterattacked, then Jane would keep iniative... However, if both original attack and counterattack failed, Initiative would be rolled again and combat would, in essence start from the begining stage...

If multiple persons are attacking, the person attacked loses his/her initiative and chance to attack... and the person with the next highest intiative attacks the target of his/her choice... If it was the a previous target, that character does not lose the chance to counterattack, no matter how many times the attackers attack him/her... After everyone has finished attacking, Initiative is rolled, but only for the attackers that succesfully attacked/counterattacked, or the players who both failed their attack/counterattack actions...
This is what I call "Rolling Melee Combat" because it's simple, clean, and fast...

However, if combat is gun or ranged weapon based, resolution is different... No matter if the attacker succeeds of fails in his/her attack, the other player(s) have a chance to counterattack using the same rules above... No matter what, initiative is rolled again for everyone...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Skill System

Okay, here we go with the skill system.. My next post will cover damage and damage resolution along with items...

·Skills are used as compliments to what your character exceeds in... Skills are used to compliment rolls involving an aspect of the skill...
·Skills have no maximum limits and also have no minimum limits... A skill can be a negative number, this represents your characters weakness in that skill... Characters start by setting their skills to what their class defines them to be... The Class will only show what is exceeded or what the class is weak in... Every other skill is assumed to be 0... Each class will have an assigned ammount of skill points to "throw around" or assign into any skill the player would like...
·For each invested point in the skill, players get a bonus +1 to each dice roll the skill is applicable in... I forsee Players trying to amalgmate the skills and get multiple skill bonuses in one roll....

[Andrew Martin]

A little blunt, but... what can players do with this system that they couldn't equally as well do in another "generic" system?

[ghoest]

to start, this system is designed to be modularized so that anything but the base attributes can be modified without intensive rehauling and redesigning (this is accomplished due to the fact the base attribute ssytem is literally the base of the system and everything else sprouts up from that while not adding to the base but taking from the and taking from other modules while not needing the modules to act as an indivdual module [other modules compliment that module])...   Second, I'm in the process of developing multiple mix'n match modules for the system after I get a firm base that I can use in the " The Matrix " type setting I'll be designing using the function system...
Third, I haven't seen any combat system like the combat module I've developed... It's light and in real time (for lack of a better phrase) fast, making for short combat instead of long and drawn out combat...

That's all about designers, players will be treated to fast reflexive based combat, simplistic yet challenging rule settings, a system with no need for charts due to the design (unless a module calls for it), and a system that ISN'T tangled into a large mess... This system is open to any kind of modification in ways of new modules and I think that it's got a very solid base, solid enough to handle anything thrown at it...

However, considering this is my first system I've written down (I've thought up many more).. I openly embrace and invite critisism.. please feel free to tell me if this looks like any other system you know, I want to know...

[Mike Holmes]

Go to the Riddle of Steel website, and download the quickstart rules. Also, if you have the werewithal, I suggest getting Donjon and checking out the combat there. And check out the Hero Wars rukes summary as well. These might help you see your own combat system in a new light.

Then read my Standard Rant #3 on combat systems (and take the right pill, Neo). Know what I think? I think that combat could be an optional module. Now that would kick ass.

Just some places to start. When you've checked these things out, come back and let us know what you think.

Mike

[Mark Johnson]

I find the names of the three attributes to be a bit distracting.  Chi is great term for some genres, but if you intend your system to be more generic, it could be distracting.  Agility is far too specific for what it is representing.  Mind is a good term but it is qualitatively different than Chi and Agility.  

My thought is you really want to call your attributes Body, Mind and Spirit but afraid that other games have used those terms too often.  There is a reason why.  Physical, Mental, Spiritual are also a good split, and is actually probably better since physical seems to fit more agile situations better than body.  I don't speak eastern languages, but if flavor is important go with the Chi and find out what the equivalents are for Body/Agility/Physical and Mind/Mental.

As for the combat section, I second Mike's recommendations.  Especially Riddle of Steel which handles initiative somewhat similarly to your game.

Have you considered making your game simply a tactical combat game with a separate modules to facilitate role playing as add ons?  The combat really does seem to be your interest and since you are going the modular route, it is a thought.  Players could choose whether they wanted to play a quick game of one on one abuse or do a more involved role playing game.  If you had a module in place for unmonitored advancement based on battles won/lost vs difficulty of the opponent players could work on upping their characters skills while not playing with a larger group in a role playing setting.  You would of course need a setting where this might be appropriate.  Virtual reality jumps to mind immediately as one.

Thanks,
Mark