Character Creation Problem: No Classes or Templates

[ks13]

Over the past few months I have been busily designing my game, thanks in huge part to the Forge and the ton of great discussions going on here.

I presented some of the game ideas to a group of players that I have played with in the past. They were intrigued and are looking forward to playing. To help me finish off the game, we ran through a character creation session, and things immediately got problematic. Being avid players of D&D, they couldn't get around the fact that I have no classes or other neatly organized character choices. I was looking for them to create a concept compatible with the setting, and then using the system to build the character's they want (the game will be worked around the characters, so there isn't any "campaign" that demands they create certain type of characters). Faced with such diversity and so many options, they didn't know where to start. We eventually muddled our way through and got some sample characters that they were happy with. In fact, they concluded that classes, templates, or other restrictions were not needed. So while we had a happy ending, we didn't get there in any organized manner, and I'm afraid that other players that follow might have the same problems.

So I am trying put together a process that make character creation easier to follow. Here is what I have now. First I present the players with a general idea of the setting and game (I think this might be something along Scattershot's Genre Expectation). This gives the players an idea of the types of characters they can play.
Next is the presentation of the premise or the fundamental idea of what players will do (what the play is all about), as well as anything that might not be a standard part of the genre. The core of the characters are the Priorities - themes chosen by the players to indicate what aspects they wish to explore during play (for example, issues of loyalty, honor, family, and so on. What I try to get across is that priorities are not motives, goals, or a personality profiles of the character). The only significant restrictions or limitations are consistency with the setting, and having all the characters in the same time-space. What I mean by the latter is to ensure that that the characters will be able to interact. If one player creates a pirate character an another a forest ranger, it is possible for these characters to interact in the same story. However, if one player is expecting most of the game play to take place on the high seas, and the other in the wilderness, that will not work.
The idea of the process is that the player creates some mental sketch of the character type they want to play (something like a lone warrior, dishonored courtier, cat burglar etc., keeping it rather general), add the themes/priorities that interest them, and then details are filled in are the other characters are being created and everything starts to merge.

Once the ideas started flowing, the players had no problem following the process. But getting things started might still be a stumbling point for players expecting some sort of concrete initial choice. How can I improve this? I don't want add artificial limitations on the character options. Does it take a lot of examples? Sample character types or templates? Any ideas how to deal with this?

Regards,

Al

[arkcure]

Perhaps if you were to provide a list of skills that a player can choose from and then have the players build their skills without specifying a character class would be one good way.

I too am working on a RPG in the infant stages and am weary of making classes.  I thought maybe if someone chose a core set of skills, then they could build their skills towards a certain class or whatever you call it.  I for one don't like the idea of too much structure.

What type of setting is the game?  I assume fantasy wut I could be wrong.

[Sylus Thane]

My suggestion would be example templates. Basically you pick a profession for a character and then provide an example of possible skills, traits, or whatever you choose to use to describe a characters abilities. You then state that this is not a fixed means in which this type of character is created, leaving people with a viable example but not feeling as though they are trapped making exactly as the template describes.

For example, in my game Frontier people are defined by their skills, not by classes or other formalized means. I then lay out several varied example templates of possible professions a character could have, and then list possible skills that may be found used of a person of that profession.

This also gives people an easy means of defining what a character is. They merely think of a known profession and decide for themselves what types of (insert defining factor here) that would make up such a character, and easily allows them to mix and match different types to make their own.

I would also be interested in where you are going with your game as we seem to be designing/thinking along similar lines.

Sylus

[ks13]

First off, yes the game setting is fantasy (can?t make a Fantasy heartbreaker without it :)). But the approach I?m trying to take could be in just about any setting.

The idea of simply allowing players to go through skills unfortunately doesn?t solve the problem. It seems to be the same package assembled in just a different way. Strikes me as ?ok, I have a character (aka group of skills), now what do I do with it??. And since there is no predetermined story/campaign, this drives the players nuts because they have no idea if their skill selection will be appropriate or not! It is still packing a concept into a mold, where I?m looking to form the mold (that being skills, social standing, background & history, equipment, etc.) around the concept. A concept could be ?a bad ass who doesn?t back down from anybody?. Figure out why the character is a badass, why he never backs down, and then add all the other stuff to it.
The other problem with skill lists, is that I don?t have any. I have broad skill groups, and some examples of specific skills within each. But since there could be thousands of skills (you could chose to specialize in just about anything and call it a skill), the individual skills are in some sense created by the player. Players decides what the character can do (well), and then make the appropriate skill (if its not already on the sample list).
What I plan to do for the other players is ask them to write a brief description, and then use that to extract the critical stats and skills. The skills certainly are important. The player sees the character as having a certain ability at a certain level of proficiency. But I?m not sure that a skill or two can be used to develop the entire character.

Professions face the same issue. There could be hundreds of them. Anything that is reasonable for a fantasy setting is a probably a likely profession. Holy warriors, sure; wizards, you bet; crazy kung fu monk? We can probably work that in as well. There might be some cosmetic changes to stay consistent with the setting, but underlying ideas remain the same.

I want the players to think about their Priorities and the game premise. Any sort of pre-packaging just moves away from that. So templates as a collection of abilities, stats, and vocational details are hard to fit in. But if the templates were of character concepts, that might be more in line with what I?m after. The danger here is that end up listing a bunch of fantasy cliches. I need something to help the players kick start ideas for their own concepts. Some sort of diagram where each section the player makes a choice or answers a question. Then they assemble the pieces and fill in the details.

OK, that gives me some ideas.

[Le Joueur]

Sorry Al, I almost missed this one,

Over the past few months I have been busily designing my game, thanks in huge part to the Forge and the ton of great discussions going on here.

...A character creation session....[list=1][*]...No classes or other neatly organized character choices.
[*]...Looking for them to create a concept compatible with the setting....
[*]...Such diversity and so many options, they didn't know where to start.
[*]...Didn't get there in any organized manner[/list:o]So I am trying put together a process that make character creation easier to follow. Here is what I have now. First I present the players with a general idea of the setting and game (I think this might be something along Scattershot's Genre Expectations). This gives the players an idea of the types of characters they can play.

...Once the ideas started flowing, the players had no problem following the process. But getting things started might still be a stumbling point for players expecting some sort of concrete initial choice. How can I improve this? I don't want add artificial limitations on the character options. Does it take a lot of examples? Sample character types or templates? Any ideas how to deal with this?

I can't say how this relates, but I'll describe how it works for Scattershot; let that inform your design.

First of all, we liken making a Persona to following a recipe that ends with "combine all ingredients."  Some people will naturally latch on to different aspects of Persona Development and inspire off of that.  In your case, you might make it possible for people to choose their "fundamental ideas," priorities, themes, and profiles, first and then create a character that best suits that.

Secondly, we've realized that a good Genre Expectation includes what 'types of characters' to be played; unfortunately that may simply put the problem back to where you started.  For Scattershot, we use a series of "Exemplars."  These combine example Personae, templates, and 'take it and run' instant Personae.  They aren't 'character classes' as in 'you are limited to thus and so.'  They aren't as 'strong' as 'these are the only templates you may use.'  They appear to be examples to some players (who have ideas of what to play), starting points for players lacking inspiration, and 'open source' Personae to players not interested in 'doing all the work.'  Best of all, their range suggests a lot of 'what to do' in the game (something getting to be called 'creative agenda' around here).

Exemplars satisfies the need for #1 above, by offering suggestions without creating 'silos' or rigid limitations.  They deliver #2 by laying out what 'the designer had in mind' as far as the Genre Expectations.  They also provide and 'under the hood' example of what can be done to satisfy #3.  And for #4, I'd just suggest a quick 'think like a recipe' or whatever checklist for what a character needs.

Hope that helps!

Fang Langford

[arkcure]

Well, ks13, the only word for some reason comes to mind is "avatar."  While this word describes physical appearence, maybe you could apply it to what you think it should be.  

For me, I hate it when the GM "advises" you on skills that would help  the adventure.  It tends to ruin the whole game, which is fairly obvious.  I think you need to decide what exactly you want a character to be defined by, whether it be their proffession, skills, looks, weapons, magic abilities, etc. and then go from there.  

But keep posting and bouncing your ideas.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi there,

Fang's work is a great place to start, but I also suggest looking up The Questing Beast (see the Random Order Creations forum) for its rules about The Accord.

See also Universalis, especially discussions about its start-up phase; and Legends of Alyria (see the Alyria forum and get a download of Blood of Haven) for its awesome storymap system.

All of these are direct, realistic, and fun solutions to the "all freedom, no direction" problem of less-structured character-creation systems.

Best,
Ron

[Mark Johnson]

Al,

Templates or even sample characters are a great resource in two ways:  

Firstly, for the players, the obvious benefit is simplified character creation.   In a freer form system (especially one without standardized  skills/descriptors) it can be very easy to overlook some aspect of the character that might be important.  For example, you may consciously decide not to give your chivalrous knight a "riding" skill to make your knight unique in the campaign.  But, it would be unfortunate to be deprived of that skill because you did not think about it when creating the character.  Sad Lord Seymore has to tend the peasants back at the homestead while his comrades rush off on horseback to fight the orc invasion.

Secondly, for the GM, I have found that templates are great for when you simply need a generic NPC for the situation and don't want to have to fill in every gap that might come up on the fly.  Of course important or quirky NPCs probably demand a little more attention; but a template or sample character is a great starting point.  I like to have templates and the such for character types that by their nature are unlikely to be played as PCs.  This is esepecially true if I am not as familiar with the setting.  In a magic heavy fantasy setting even commoners might have some ability in hedge magic or the such.

Just my preferences as a consumer,
Mark J

[KeithBVaughn]

Here's what I 've did in my first game: "Embers of Empire: SFRPG."

1) A list of skills available
2) Higher proficenies in the skills cost higher starting points (limited pool of points to buy with) I used arithmatic progression from 1-10.
3) Knowledge of the mission before hand to allow the players to intelligently choose their skills.
4) The players together to "horse trade" to get skills at a high enough proficeny to roll against challenges. Keeps teamwork more than just an empty word.
5) An ability to earn points to buy higher skill proficencies or new ones.

This worked for me. In my current game (Number 3) I'm using the same concept of skills without stats to define a character. It's up to the player to make up a character concept and buy the skills needed to be that conceptulation.

I also might suggest having random rolling tables for things like comeliness; hair, eye and skin colors, height and weight tables and other things to allow the player to get a picture in their mind's eye of what their character looks like.

Good Luck,
Keith

[ks13]

Arkcure, I'm not sure I follow what you mean by "avatar" (in the context of this discussion). As far as an element that is central to character creation, it would have to be Priorities (themes). But these are player chosen, and there are hundreds of possible characters that can be used to explore any given theme.

Fang, I think that is very much what I'm after!

First of all, we liken making a Persona to following a recipe that ends with "combine all ingredients."

I see two ways of using this. Either you have some ingredients and you try to see what can be made from them, or have an end result in mind and look for the right ingredients to make it work.

I will do more digging around in Scattershot. Thanks for pointing out what I should be looking for.

I'm still unsure about the templates. I think I need the players to see the process. The end result doesn't seem too uselful, but then again more examples are probably a good idea.

Ron, thanks for the reading list! No doubt I'll find plenty of ideas there.

Anyway, here is what I came up after the intial feedback.
The players will think about and try to answer some sample questions in 4 areas. Not all questions need to answered, and player can skip from box to box (or go through in a reiterative process). They can stop at any point and launch into the crunchy bit of character creation. At which point I assume their concept is pretty clear and they want the hard numbers to back it up. The areas and sample questions are as follows:

Fundamentals:

Male or female? What age group? Any standout traits (such as speed, strength, wits)? Any deficient traits? What sort of body shape (tall, fat, muscular)? Any distinguishing physical features, personality quirks, or noteworthy appearance?

Social Role:

What type of society or culture (urban or rural, part of clan/family or loner)? Social standing or class? Any notable resources such as wealth, contacts, lineage? Purpose in society; what do they do? Any Social Advantages?<refering to specific game mechanic, players consult list> Reputation or notoriety?

Drive/Action:

What themes will be explored during play? What does the character?s life revolved around? What are the Priorities?<pick from list or player defined> How did they develop? How was the character?s Echo first manifested? What is their current situation?

Capabilities:

How do they survive/make a living? What skill do they use day in day out?  What are they good at; have a knack for? Any exceptional abilities? What did they learn/study, where and how?

Now hopefully, even one answer is a starting point for the creation of the concept. I guess this provides the key elements that should in that brief character write-up I mentioned previously. But does it work? Does anyone find this useful to start developing a character sketch?

Al

[ks13]

But, it would be unfortunate to be deprived of that skill because you did not think about it when creating the character.

Mark, I actually deal with this type of situation by allowing players to declare skills after the start of the game. They are not forced to lists everything up front, and it helps to minimize the effect of overlooked or useless skills.

I hear the support for templates being strongly endorsed. As sample PCs, am not too sure about it. But what I just realized I could do, is to make sample characters or templates that represent different slices of the various cultures/societies. Tie it more to the setting and colour, without giving any specifics on stats or skills. Leave it in a much more descriptive form. Skill selection, stat derivation, and all the other bits aren't a problem, because by then the player has a very good idea what they are after. I will check how Scattershot handles this, as well as the other sources suggested.
The other way to use templates is to leave the specifics (stats, skills) as dials that player uses to tune the character to their concept. I could probably build these "dials" from the question method I proposed above.

Keith,

I also might suggest having random rolling tables for things like comeliness; hair, eye and skin colors, height and weight tables and other things to allow the player to get a picture in their mind's eye of what their character looks like.

As a player I think that I would either want the control to define these elements, or just pick the appropriate racial standard (if I have a racial/cultural background chosen). But as an absolute starting point, rolling dice might have some use.

What I find really interesting is when you say

It's up to the player to make up a character concept and buy the skills needed to be that conceptulation.

How is that initial concept created or started? I need to find ways to promote that, the rest is fairly well represented by the the mechanics.

Thanks for the suggestions.

Al

[KeithBVaughn]

Hi Al,

I've done that in the past by giving the players a good idea of what the background iof the game is, i.e. what challenges they can expect. With this in mind they can choose the skills needed to meet these challenges. After all, their characters are living in this world and would know the dangers of it.

I have had mentions of templates but I consider these a bit of stalling on the way to thinking. For example; a person who looked at my game: "Planets of Peril" mentioned a heavy calvaryman to me and providing a template to it. I said to find the skills used in that type of profession and buy them for that type of character concept e.g. Rider, Spearman, Swordsman, Tactician, Leader and a few others would be good ones to consider.

It is a bit hard to get some players away from Nose-Ring games (like a bull being lead around by a ring through its nose--D&D is a prime example.) Once they are loose they know skills normally associalted with that concept and they can customize their character without breaking/bending classes/races/templates.

Also, don't forget the importance of a skilled team and the rationing of points at the beginning of the game. No man is an expert in all things. A skill list in front of the players and the pooling of their thought processes to make the most potent character team helped party unity.

I hope I answered the question, I'm a little tired right now. If you have any further questions, I'll keep an eye on this thread,

Good Luck,
Keith

[James V. West]

This thread is a little old now, but I just read it and thought I'd put in my 2 cents (worth about 25% that amount--hehe).

For Black Wing, I'm going the no-classes route, providing ample examples of "skills" and what-not, and a bunch of ready-made characters. I find example characters to be the very best way to learn char gen in a new game. In fact, if I buy a game and there aren't any example characters I feel kinda lost. Michael T. Desing's Army Ants is a terrific game but seems really spare on example characters. He gives you Templates, which are also helpful, but I personally need to see finished, ready-to-go characters so I know what's going through the game designer's head for real.

[Mike Holmes]

As long as it's been resurrected...


What I'd do is to do mini-templates that represent chucks of characters. Thus, a character who was in an Army would get the soldier package. Twice if he was in for a long time. If he then became a mercenary, he'd get that package.

Essentially, in addition to the packages for culture that you mention, I'd have ones for each period of the character's life. Then add everything together to come up with the final character. If you're using a point-based system, then charge the appropriate points for each package. The player can use left over points to then tailor the character more specifically. Perhaps he didn't learn as much military organization, but became a better shot than would usually have happened.

Anyhow, this allows the player to tailor the character, and yet to achieve some sense of appropriateness of levels of ability. If you have only 20 pachages, that gives you 8000 combinations of three packages before personalizing them, and at least six characters can be created without need for overlap.

Mike

[anonymouse]

Shadowrun.

You're not looking for classes or templates; you're looking for archetypes.

Write up ten to twelve sample characters. It doesn't matter if they fill any of the classic roles (fight guy/magic guy/thief guy, or the tough guy/smart guy/stylish guy) or not; all they need to do is present a character.

Shadowrun did present easily-workable archetypes, but it also had a great chapter (well, 2nd Edition did, anyway..) of Contacts/NPCs which, with a teeny bit of beefing, were excellent archetypes.

As soon as you started describing your problem, Shadowrun was the first thing that popped into my head. Track down a copy of 2nd Edition if you can (or the GM's Screen, which was bundled with a bunch more archetypes and Contacts/NPCs) and take a look. 3rd Edition would work as well, but it lacks a good base of Contacts, so its selection is kinda limited.