Intro and Rewards Discussion

[Nathaniel]

Hello all.  Name's Nathan.  I've read all the articles in the articles section and a good number of the recent posts and figured I'd have at it and post my own post.

Does it work to tie a meta-game resource with a reward system?  Specifically I'm thinking of giving Fudge points instead of experience points and adjust improvement costs appropriately.

These points can be spent on more than just increases in statistics.  They can also be used during the game to reroll dice, automatically suceed at actions, etc.  I'm also thinking of giving the ability to buy "influence" on the plot with them.  For example, I'm running a game where there's a particular nemesis for the party.  The plot has him being a long term background nemesis (the kind that last though seasons in television shows).  If the players so choose, they could spend enough points to effect his removal, distraction away from them, incarceration, etc. or atleast begin to move the plot in that direction.

I'm looking for a way to have rewards usable as a metagame resource for narrativist decision making.  Extra player empowerment when it comes to the plot and direction of the story.  This way, Fudge points will become a universal reward.  They can be used for character improvement, modifying in game results and even modifying story/plot related directions.

Any thoughts on this idea?

Nathaniel

[iago]

Does it work to tie a meta-game resource with a reward system?  Specifically I'm thinking of giving Fudge points instead of experience points and adjust improvement costs appropriately.

That's pretty much exactly what we recommend with Fate (a Fudge variant among other things - link below).  Since I'm already doing it, I can't see as I have a problem with it. :)

In fact, I don't even go for the transformation of Fudge points into experience points.  Fudge is such a roughly-grained system, a huge amount of "sheet" advancement doesn't seem apropos, so I'm much more comfortable giving people a greater pool of semi-renewable, consumable resources (Fudge Points) than I am with constant accretion of sheet potency (Experience Points).

[ThreeGee]

Hey Nathan,

Rewarding players with metagame currency is pretty standard stuff. Deadlands, for example, provides no other form of reward, though fate chips (the metagame currency) can be, and are expected to be, converted into experience. There is a decent section in the gamemaster's book concerning balancing rewards with challenge so that the currency is being spent, but not so much that the characters are never advanced.

In a sense, The Riddle of Steel works the way you describe. However, I would recommend taking a look at Jasper's The West Wind. He lays out pretty clear rules regarding the use of metagame resource to shape the setting and story. Hong Kong Action Theatre is also worth a look for it's Star Points, which allow for a process called "script revision", if I remember correctly.

Later,
Grant

[M. J. Young]

Hey, Nathan, if I'm reading you right, you seem to be looking for a "does everything" reward system. I'm not sure whether that works. There were a couple of threads in which this was discussed (and shoot me, I had saved the links so I could use some of what I wrote there in an upcoming Game Ideas Unlimited article over at Gaming Outpost, and having just written the articles (for posting probably next month) deleted the links from my computer--but the search function works pretty well here).

Take a look at what I wrote on http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=4075">GNS and Player Rewards for some consideration of the problems that tend to afflict reward systems that don't know what they're doing. You might also find something of use in my comments on http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=5046">GNS Crisis of Faith, where reward system is used as an example of how to effectively encourage desired types of play, and how to create confusion through incoherent rewards.

I hope this is useful.

--M. J. Young

[Nathaniel]

In fact, I don't even go for the transformation of Fudge points into experience points.  Fudge is such a roughly-grained system, a huge amount of "sheet" advancement doesn't seem apropos, so I'm much more comfortable giving people a greater pool of semi-renewable, consumable resources (Fudge Points) than I am with constant accretion of sheet potency (Experience Points).

That observation is bang on.  Increasing sheet potency a step in Fudge is a colossal difference.  Perhaps it would be better to just give the semi-renewable metagame resource and arbitrarily raise skills/traits based on their usage.  Use fudge points to suceed at magic a lot demonstrates that you are better at it (as you suceed a lot) and thus the character gets the increase to accurately reflect the change in concept (which is an increase in magical power as demonstrated by sucess) rather than having the concept reflect the change in sheet potency.

Hmmm...

Nathaniel

[Nathaniel]

Hey, Nathan, if I'm reading you right, you seem to be looking for a "does everything" reward system. I'm not sure whether that works.

When I started typing the post I wasn't, but by the time I did my idea expanded to include just about everything.  I agree with Iago about the granularity of Fudge and the drastic effect of "sheet potenccy" increases and now have my alternate idea of experience-- demonstrate continual and sustained sucsess and push the envelope (which can be done more consistently with the spending of Fudge points) and the skill will be adjusted to reflect the demonstrated level of proficiency.

The threads you gave me links to are great.  Thanks.

Nice to see a familiar face around here.  I enjoy your faith and gaming articles written for the CGG.  I lurk on those lists as well.  I think also I remember postings from Iago on the Fudgelist.  It's nice to be able to connect people's posts to actual projects and interests on other lists.

Nathan i el

[Nathaniel]

I know every newbie to a discussion board wants to bring up something "new" or revolutionary, but I still wonder about what I just came up with.  I haven't seen the idea of a reward system that increases sheet potency based on demonstrated proficiency within the game (even if through metagame resources like fudge points) rather than demonstrating proficiency because of sheet potency.  Has anyone done this?  Spending metagame resources to consistently succeed with a given skill and thus have that skill increase to reflect the increase as demonstrated by the success?  It's almost a reversal of most rewards systems where you increase in sucess because you increased the "sheet potency."

RuneQuest/ElfQuest/CoCthulu have a similar mechanic in that if you succeed in a skill, you get to check it off and see if it increases, but still that's not quite the same.  It's already at the higher level and the discription on the sheet is just catching up with how the character is in the actual game.

Any thoughts on this method of reward?

Nathan

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Nathan,

I think you'd be interested by a complete read of Champions from its earliest incarnation all the way up through the current Fifth Edition, which includes the invention of "the Hero system" about half-way through the story.

In a word, Champions is a point-based system, one of the earliest ones, in which one simply amasses points pretty steadily each session and spends them to buy new stuff one's character can do. It mirrors four-color comic-book character development exceptionally well.

Now for the interesting parts ...

1. The point-costs of the powers on the sheet, once spent, are not gone. One can, for instance, build a Multipower permitting several applications of one's Cosmic Ring, and then later, having amassed the necessary points, convert the entire existing Multipower to a Variable Power Pool, which is much more expensive. The Multipower is now gone, replaced by the VPP, which is paid for both by the "old" points and the new ones which up until now were merely banked.

2. Very often, a lucky roll or what was called Pushing one's power will inspire a player or GM to spend points on an ability or skill or whatever, formalizing an action during play into a real ability. Although in Session A, the character actually managed to leap particularly high for one reason or another, and the points weren't spent for Superleap until Session B, we consider the character to have demonstrated Superleap in Session A, retrospectively.

3. A house-rule that appeared in many independent groups across the country included "burning" existing but unspent experience points for concrete bonuses to dice rolls or even for "do-over" full metagame rewrites of events that were just played.

Today, I think that Hero Wars' point system is perhaps the closest to the system that you're considering. I strongly recommend reading this game as well.

Best,
Ron

[Ben Morgan]

Welcome to the Forge, Nathan.

I have been using a very similar system for the Cyberpunk game I'm running now, and it's been fantastic. For want of a better name, they're called Cool Points, mainly because I give them out when players do cool stuff -- cool lines, cool descriptions, an unexpected decision or action that turns the plot in a cool way; basically jamming, to build on Ron's gaming-group-as-band analogy, any kind of nifty show of creativity. The specific criteria I explained to the group was: any time you do something that makes one or more of the group go, "ohthatssocool!"

These points work in two ways: They can be used to increase the chances of success on a single roll (Cyberpunk vets will recognize this as the role normally filled by Luck), but they can also be used as experience points, to raise an attribute or skill via a White Wolf type experience table.

In practice, the flexibility has worked quite well. Some of my players like the "reward now" aspect, and others like the "reward later".

-- Ben

[Walt Freitag]

Hi Nathan,

To answer your specific question, I'm not aware of any system that formally uses the exact mechanism you describe. Hero Wars comes close, because the cost of using Hero Points to increase an ability depends on whether or not the advancement is justifiable as occurring as a result of events of the previous session. But it doesn't go so far as to make a direct exclusive link between the ability increase and the use of Hero Points to bump that ability during prior play.

A few months ago I suggested a mechanism fitting your description for a game Pale Fire is working on. An ability score could increase permanently only as a result of using a metagame resource to reverse a failure. The idea was to represent skill advancement as it's depicted in certain genres (some fantasy, most anime) in which skill improves as a series of spontaneous breakthroughs occurring at critical stressful moments, rather than through practice or training. (In fact, in these subgenres when a protagonist's training is depicted, it's often represented as having failed, until the crisis and resulting breakthrough occur.) I'll see if I can find the thread.

I think it would be a cool mechanism, but some issues need to be resolved, including "stakes thresholds" (is it necessary to prevent frivolous attempts to do very difficult but pointless feats just to have the chance to invoke the advancement mechanism?) and the possible drawbacks of not being able to advance a skill that's not used in a session -- e.g. how do you learn the language of a place you plan to visit several months hence?

- Walt

[Mike Holmes]

Yeah, there have been many games that have looked at this idea in different measure. Some of them like to reward failure instead of success. Some like to limit attempts. Lots of variables.

But, as Walt points out, Hero Wars is so close to your idea that yours is bound to work. Hero Wars certainly does, and yours is so close that I can't see any difficulties with it.

That said, a lot will depend on what sort of game you put it into. Any details?

Also see Experience Dice from 7th Sea.

Mike

[Nathaniel]

Hi Nathan,
I think it would be a cool mechanism, but some issues need to be resolved, including "stakes thresholds" (is it necessary to prevent frivolous attempts to do very difficult but pointless feats just to have the chance to invoke the advancement mechanism?)

I think it will have to left in GM hands with general guidelines being given.  And probably a couple of examples would be given as well.  I think a solution to keep someone from abusing the system to increase their rate of advancement can easily be balanced out by the fact that the metagame resource will be potent enough (and just sparse enough) that you wouldn't want to waste it on a frivilous attempt.  Lots of examples, explanations and guidelines would be needed.

and the possible drawbacks of not being able to advance a skill that's not used in a session -- e.g. how do you learn the language of a place you plan to visit several months hence?

Advancement through training/study?  For some skills and in some situations, skills could be increased purely by training/practice/study.  The language one is a prime example.  I teach English language lessons and I know that individual study and review is a very good thing for a student to be be doing, especially for the written side of the language.  It's less useful for the spoken side.  There are lots of advancement methods for training in a bunch of different games.  I'll probably just find one that works.

As for how I'd actually handle that in a game as a GM?  If I felt that your character spent enough time studying the language on his own, practicing with others and possibly seeing a tutor, I'd just give your character an increase.

Nathan

[Nathaniel]

That said, a lot will depend on what sort of game you put it into. Any details?

A Fudge derivative.  Quite Narrativist in it's goals.  The rules are there to resolve what is going on and go no further than necessary.  The GM has the freedom/power to interpret die rolls as he or she sees fit.

The setting is kind of a soft sci-fi or space opera but with more of a older sci fi feeling.  Bubble llike power armour, odd robots, "Blasto" guns, energy shields, Z-rays, space sorcerers and the like.  Almost pulp.  Just on the edge of pulp.  I ran 2 "episodes" a few months ago and they were a complete sucess.  It was a little "crunchier" though because I had some hard core crunchy players who were the gamists of the gamists join in.  It was still definitely more narrativist and simulationist in it's style but it worked.  The actual PDF I want to put together will have smoother versions of the magic, psionic and combat systems.  The combat system was quite bad... but the two d20/Palladium enthusiasts who joined in liked it :)  The second session saw no combat at all.  They even had a blast then.

One of my other players had the best skill.  Very much had a metagame function.  It was called "lucky guess."  He would make a guess and how favorable the roll I made for determined how correct he was and the story would be adjusted appropriately.  He used it about 10 times in a three hour session with verying results.  It was great.

Anywhoo,

Nathaniel

[szilard]

This is actually pretty much the reward system which I favor strongly.

I think part of the appeal is that it can be appreciated by players with various preferences. A player wants to exert story control? Not a problem. A player wants to have an impressive character sheet? It can be done. A player wants to be able to control when his character succeeds and fails? Sure.

Since these all come from the same pool, you don't run into serious balance issues, either...

Stuart

[Mike Holmes]

OK, that gives us the setting. What are the characters like? What is the action centered on? In terms of your actual play, and also in terms of how you intend to write up the game. That is, your PCs are examples; are they highly representative? Or do you intend greater breadth than what they represent?

What I'm getting at is to ask "why is it important that the characters develop skills at all?"

Mike