How much would you want to know?

[Kester Pelagius]

Greetings All,

Say someone was working on a minigame that was a melding of Ptolemaic and Medieval cosmology ala Spelljammer, but that this project was not directly based off of that game; aside from paying homage to it as a precursor in the genre of course.  What I want to know is whether or not you think hard specifics about the shape of the universe or general conceptions would be better.  (Meaning as pertains to the actual game, not background about the historical cosmologies involved.  Let's say a few paragraphs about that has already been done.)

Also, how involved would you like the 'ships in space that isn't science fiction hyperspace, yet sort of is' mechanics to be?




Kind Regards,

Kester Pelagius

[Kester Pelagius]

Must have worded my question poorly.

So I'll expand a bit, hope that the other thousand or so users here at the Forge will have a better idea when they get around to this thread.

This is not a mechanics question.

This is not a question of background information.

It's a question, quite literally, that is asking how much explanitory information dealing with the game, and how if functions, you personally think is necessary.  Especially as touching upon derivative games.

In my example I use Spelljammer, which makes no actual attempt to explain itself using actual cosmological references.  (At least I do not recall any.)  Yet, if I had to describe it, I'd say it was a cross between a Ptolemaic paradigm and Medieval cosmology, with a bit of flavoring taken for alechemy and early chemistry thrown into the mix.

That said, how much of this sort of information would you really want to see make its way into the pages of your next gaming purchase?

[Sylus Thane]

So basically your asking if someone made an rpg like Spelljammer, essentially Disneys new Treasure Planet, how much info would I need about how the universe made it all work. Not much, a small blurb a paragraph long would be enough, it wouldn't even have to relate to real live physics as long as it made sense to the rest of the setting. My suspension of disbelief is high enough that a designer doesn't have to explain exactly and to current real world physics how it works. But, there are some people out there that need that for some reason. It all becomes a matter of preference, hopefully consumers will become less picky in that area and enjoy the game for it does do instead.

Sylus

[Mike Holmes]

Too little information. What sort of play do you hope to engender?

Mike

[Kester Pelagius]

Greetings Sylus,

So basically your asking if someone made an rpg like Spelljammer, essentially Disneys new Treasure Planet, how much info would I need about how the universe made it all work. Not much, a small blurb a paragraph long would be enough, it wouldn't even have to relate to real live physics as long as it made sense to the rest of the setting.

So you wouldn't mind a brief paragraph or two that mentioned real world cosmologies, as long as the referance was limited to being relavent to the game's setting?

But what using marginally relevant examples to better illustrate how the setting works?

My suspension of disbelief is high enough that a designer doesn't have to explain exactly and to current real world physics how it works.

Ah, but what about theories about 'real world' physics that are no longer considered valid, or which were never really given much credance in the first place, yet may be a interesting premise for use in a fantasy game?

Would you want to read a paragraph or two that outlined a historical gloss about them?


Kind Regards,

Kester Pelagius

[Kester Pelagius]

Greetings Mike,

Too little information. What sort of play do you hope to engender?

In this case it would be more a illustration of a conceptual premise.

But, since you asked so nicely. . .

If you are familiar with Spelljammer let's say that I'd like to keep the basic underlying premise, stripped down to the bare bones, and rebuilt using actual references to old cosmological models.  Thus change it from being a muddled attempt to create a "AD&D in space" campaign to a "fantasy version of space" without having to use the crutch of standard science fiction conventions.

As to what sort of play, it would likely be a fusion of good old fashioned role-playing with a taste of tactical tabletop gaming, for the ships part, which I haven't quite worked out the particulars of, yet, save that it would use either hexes or grids (I'm leaning toward hexes myself).

Hope that wasn't too vague?




Kind Regards,

Kester Pelagius

[Bankuei]

Hi Kester,

I get what you are asking, but like Mike, I'm not sure where you're aiming with the game...

...it would likely be a fusion of good old fashioned role-playing...

Which means what?  From the tactical part, I figure there will be some fighting, but is it like "board ships and go hex to hex, round to round, man to man tactical"? or is it like, "Board ships swing from rigging, sword duel + talking witty trash?"  Are we talking explore the universe and find treasure and funky secrets?  Maybe you mean harsh cold politics(see RR Martin's Ice and Fire...) + Ship combat?  

See, there's a lot of fun and cool ways "pirates in space" can play out, and you need to be clear on what it is.  If we're talking harsh political manuevering, obviously I want details on who's in power, what's valuable, where the trade lanes are, etc.  If we're talking space swashbuckling action, I want to know where the big spots for adventure are("Skull Asteroid...no one knows what's in it, but no one comes back out...").  If we're talking tactical space battles, what does that mean?  Do we get space cannons and broadside each other?  Do we throw fireballs?  Maybe we each have space whales towing our ships, but each whale is equipped with a battering horn?

So how much do I need to know?

1.  Given the range of stuff above, what is your game about?
2.  Focusing on what your game is about, what is most useful for a group to make play happen?  Is that politics and history, cool places to explore, good guy/bad guy organizations?
3.  How much do you need to play the tactical parts?  Do we need to know exact distances between jumps/travel in space time?  Do we need to know sources of "space fuel"?

Some good ideas to look at, aside from Spelljammers, as you mentioned, is check out the original Battletech books, if you can find them.  The basic rules is something like 24 pages long, jams all the history and setting info in sidebars, and yet paints an evocative enough background and conflict to set up the Battletech Universe.

Chris

[M. J. Young]

Kester--if I understand your question, you're asking whether a paragraph that says something like "this game world takes a fusion of Babylonian and Norse mythological cosmologies as the foundation for its reality, in that blah, blah, blah...." would be an asset or a detriment in a game text.

It sounds to me like it's designer notes--something that's nice to put in the back, where did you get your ideas, how did you derive this. Now, I'm not against incorporating designer notes into the text to the degree that you think they're important to understanding concepts of the universe that are relevant to play. If it's necessary to know that the world is built on the back of a turtle that is swimming in the endless oceans of eternity, and if you sail too far from the known lands you might get separated from the world entirely as it swims away from you, then you need to explain that. On the other hand, if all you mean is that the head of your pantheon is something of a cross between Marduk and Odin, the number of gamers who are actually going to gain any significant insight from that statement is probably negligible, so you're going to have to explain who the guy is himself, not where you got the ideas for him.

Is that close to addressing your question?

--M. J. Young

[Kester Pelagius]

Greetings,

Kester--if I understand your question, you're asking whether a paragraph that says something like "this game world takes a fusion of Babylonian and Norse mythological cosmologies as the foundation for its reality, in that blah, blah, blah...." would be an asset or a detriment in a game text.

No, not quite.

What I mean is. . .

The best way to explain would be either to quote you something or just ask if anyone would be interested in looking over what I have if I turned it into a PDF and offered to e-mail it to those interested.

Yeah, I've been playing around with PDFs lately.  Still can't quite get my Crypt Fiend game to convert right (if anyone remembers my posts about that from last November) but I've narrowed it down to a font issue, which is a vast imporvement over PDFs that mangled the images.  Which is neither here nor there.  Save to say I can now create PDFs.

Yeah, yippee for me.

Back to topic: How much would you want to know?  Or, to put it another way, how much do you think the average gamer would be willing to read about.  Not just, as you illustrated, detail about the game world, but about actual real world information.

*thinking*

*still thinking*


Ah. . ok, ok; try this:  How much information that would otherwise probably be relegated to encyclopedias and history texts do you think a game author should include in their game.  Educational material, but related to the game.


Kind Regards,

Kester Pelagius

[Kester Pelagius]

Greetings,

Again.

I get what you are asking, but like Mike, I'm not sure where you're aiming with the game...

...it would likely be a fusion of good old fashioned role-playing...

Which means what?

That there will be a little bit of everything possible, like in any old fashioned RPG, but with rules for strategic table top ship-to-ship action.  If anyone wants to enjoy a good old bit of swashbuckling swords and sorcery in the depths of either N-space the mysterious Empyrean realm.

If we're talking harsh political manuevering, obviously I want details on who's in power, what's valuable, where the trade lanes are, etc.  If we're talking space swashbuckling action, I want to know where the big spots for adventure are("Skull Asteroid...no one knows what's in it, but no one comes back out...").  If we're talking tactical space battles, what does that mean?  Do we get space cannons and broadside each other?  Do we throw fireballs?  Maybe we each have space whales towing our ships, but each whale is equipped with a battering horn?

Most of the actual development I want to place firmly in the hands of the Game Master.  There will be *some* information, obviously, to begin with.  Going with what I have already done I've got a map, thumbnail descriptions of major ports of call, and the like.

As for the rest, you'll just have to wait and read it for yourself.  *smirks*

Some good ideas to look at, aside from Spelljammers, as you mentioned, is check out the original Battletech books, if you can find them.  The basic rules is something like 24 pages long, jams all the history and setting info in sidebars, and yet paints an evocative enough background and conflict to set up the Battletech Universe.

Good suggestions.

What I have at present is probably 8 or 9 pages, sans the actual ship and combat mechanics.


Kind Regards,

Kester Pelagius

[Bankuei]

Ah. . ok, ok; try this: How much information that would otherwise probably be relegated to encyclopedias and history texts do you think a game author should include in their game. Educational material, but related to the game.

Ok, I follow you now, you're asking how much detail should you bring in on the background regarding stuff that can be accessed elsewhere...

First, I highly recommend going over the basics of whatever your gameworld is about, you have it about right when at least 3 out of 5 people who've never heard of it, can read what you have and get a good "feel" for it.  The exact amount of information is going to be dependant on how popular or hot a topic is.

In this case, you're talking about "Pirates in Space" which, while a cool concept, isn't popular enough to skirt by without some detailing of the kind of stuff that's possible.  For example, can people breath in space?  Or not freeze/burn/explode?  Can they "swim" in space?  These are important basics to the genre that need to be established. Do ships move by "solar winds" with trips between star systems taking a couple of days of sailing?  Can you row your way across space?

As far as other information, a lot will depend again, on the focus of your game.  If you want to treat your game lightly(action adventure swashbuckling), simply give some basics and direct folks towards a list of movies, books and comics.  If there are unique or significantly "difficult" concepts to convey, then you need to go into detail.

Chris

[Mike Holmes]

Ah. . ok, ok; try this:  How much information that would otherwise probably be relegated to encyclopedias and history texts do you think a game author should include in their game.  Educational material, but related to the game.

Is the material intended to further play in any way, or just to be educational. Either is fine, but as MJ said, the latter could be put in a designers notes section.

Hell, Clinton put a whole section on how to publish an indie game in Donjon.

Mike

[Le Joueur]

Hey Kester,

Isn't it really a matter of balance?  Would the game seem 'right' if there were lots and lots of description of the economics of the realm and hardly any on mechanics of the ships?  Would it be 'right' to leave money out entirely?  That's a personal choice in terms of balance.

We can't tell you what to do.  We can't tell you what's right or better or elegant or best.  Look at how big you want the product to be in the completed version; separate it into sections based upon your preferences of balance.  Write these sections; go back and decide what you missed.  When you get everything you missed into a specifically limited section, and balance it how you like, you'll have exactly "how much would...want to know."

Each person has their own preferences.  I like a game that gives a little about everything and does an incredible job implying the rest.  Everything sort of 'unfolds' from what is printed, but I'm a thinker and I like to infer and consider.  Others like everything spelled out in detail, they don't like ambiguity or having to figure things out; for them the game would need to be quite focused, covering only what must come up for the game to fulfill your 'creative agenda' for it.  Another person will want rock solid mechanics and 'fill' that perfectly supports and connects to it.  Still others want games filled with what 'strikes their fancy,' inspiring them to play according to your vision of the 'creative agenda' with only a nod towards how that relates to the mechanics.

At best, we can only give you our opinions.  What you do is up to you.  Question them, but bring your own preferences to the questioning or we can only give you oblique advice.

Does that, if not answer, give framework to your question?

Fang Langford

[Jack Spencer Jr]

"Personal preference" is being said a lot lately its seems. While on the one hand I agree that many issues do boil down to personal preference, I personally feel like it's stymieing* discussion so we can say anything solid about what I think are key issues.

I'll use an analogy. If we were a cooking site and someone asked what a good recipe for chicken was, saying there are many recipies for chicken and it boils down to one's personal preference is true but unhelpful. But then, saying one prefers steak to chicken is even less helpful.

I'm not entirely sure what I'm getting at other than it bothers me. At some point we can take it as understood that personal preference is coloring everything, really. Like when a wine, red or white, is suggested with a particular dish it is understood that you can naturally drink whatever wine you damn well please, even if it's beer, but that the suggested wine is believed to enhance the flovor of a particular dish in some way.




*"stymieing" is the correct spelling. I looked it up. Shocked me.

[Bankuei]

Hi Jack,

You make a valid point.

I'll use an analogy. If we were a cooking site and someone asked what a good recipe for chicken was, saying there are many recipies for chicken and it boils down to one's personal preference is true but unhelpful.

But I think the question that is being asked is, "What is your game about?" in the creative agenda sense, which is the same thing as saying, "What kind of chicken do you want?"

In this case, Kester, what folks are asking is more than what you can do with your game, what is being asked is what should we be doing with this game?

The amount of information is that you include depends on your focus of the "Big 5", Character, System, Setting, Color, and Situation.  You can find plenty of games with tons of info(Whitewolf stuff) to the bare minimum(the Pool), you can find system heavy stuff like Hero or GURPS, to Setting Heavy.  How much info would a gamer be interested in reading?  What is your game focused on?  

How much tangent info should you include?  As much as you feel is necessary to assist the reader.  Ron includes a lot of stuff that has to do with gaming that is not Sorcerer or system specific, yet its all there to assist in the playing of Sorcerer.    Unknown Armies starts with a couple of pages of Design notes.  How much is too much?  We still haven't determined how much basic info, much less tangent info you need...  We still don't know what kind of chicken we're cooking.

Chris