pulp sf ideas - citizens, don your criticism helmets please

[signoftheserpent]

i am trying to write a background for a pulp/classic/cheesy SF action/adventure/space opera style game. i am trying to find a focus for the antagonistic elements within the setting in an interesting way. what i present here is a brief explanation of how the bad guys work; it is very simple buyt as i wrote it i started to wodner if it wasnt t huge ripoff (subconsciously of course!) of deadlands/dark conspiracy. i present it here to solicit opinions and advice on how to make it a little more original. however to explain a couple of things:

1) the good guys are the space patrol - the name shoudl really say it all, however their specific details arent really relevant for now.
2) the mentors and the darklings are essentially yhe arisians and the eddore from lensman; they are cut from the same cloth really. their conflict spawned our galaxy
3) somewhat unrelatedly (is that a word?), i am wondering whether to limit the setting to our galaxy with perhaps a less fantastic tech level (as you might actually find in old SF) or increast the scope to the galaxy at large. there are as you might expect many alien races and the possibility for epic scope is increased with the physical size of the setting, however a smaller size might be easier to handle (similar i think to what the shootingiron people are doing with their danger aptrol game - which coincidentally i discoevered at the same time i started writing this - honest guv!)

here is my very brief little writeup:

"The Darklings were banished from the dark homeworld, the mysterious planet known only as ‘Planet X’ to the negative zone of ‘dimension x’ (from where the planet takes its name).

However since the reappearance of the planet, a cult has arisen that has secretly existed across the galaxy for as long as humanoid life has existed; these are the sinister Black Acolytes.

They fuel the power of the Darklings by harvesting fear and hate across the cosmos, working from the shadows to plant seeds of evil. Their purpose, and the ultimate fruit these seeds will bear, will be to breach the dimensional barrier placed by the Mentors after their eons old war to forever banish the Darklings. Fear and evil have the power to strengthen the Darklings across the barrier, enabling them to enter our dimension.
Only the Space Patrol can prevent the shadowy agents of evil and their masters who, even now (thanks to their servants’ efforts) have the power to reach into our dimension with their thoughts, enabling them to affect the weak minded causing them to do their bidding, or to aid their servants work."

i really dont want to clone other games in development either (since they are actully going ot see print and mine is a little more..not going to, although that is the ultimate one-day-perhaps goal). both core command and danger patrol look cool, and this 'genre' seems popular at the moment.

thanks

[Rich Stokes]

Sounds like a reasonable basis for a 2 fisted space opera.  I like the idea, but i'll be honest and say it sounds like a million other things I've read and played.  That's not a bad thing per se though.  The genre really requires cheese, so I can imagine it's quite hard to make it original.  The universes last best hope and all that.  You might want to look at the Night's Dawn trilogy by Peter F Hamilton (Reality Dysfunction etc).  Hefty books, but a similar theme (the dead start to invade the universe in a "fun but cheesey" way).

Now all you have to do is came up with a system that suits the genre and you have a basis.  But at the moment all you really have is an idea (2 fisted space opera action) that's been done before.  You'd do well co try and capture the rediculous action and mad intensity of this type of thing.  Not easy, but larger than life is what it's about.  You'll wanna check out OcTane I recon?  Or "Sci-fi-ify" HeroWars.  I think you'll find there are other systems already around that'll work for you, unless you're hell bent on creating your own you'll save a lot of time and pain by just yanking one of those and tweaking it and addingyour own setting.

But don't let any of this stop you trying :)

[signoftheserpent]

>Sounds like a reasonable basis for a 2 fisted space opera. I like the idea, but i'll be honest and say it sounds like a million other things I've read and played.

thats the problem - especially with 'cheesy'genres. i prefer that type of game for many reasons (its easier to run, more fun etc).
however it only occured to me after i posted that the idea might sound like a space horror game. its not, the darklings are not the great old ones (or the beings from dark conspiracy). they are more like the mysterons from captain scarlet. i figured they might exist - in their true forms - as disembodied brains; soulless as it were like the beings that wager quatloos in star trek. ultimately the mentors and the darklings are in the sidelines.

>That's not a bad thing per se though. The genre really requires cheese, so I can imagine it's quite hard to make it original. The universes last best hope and all that. You might want to look at the Night's Dawn trilogy by Peter F Hamilton (Reality Dysfunction etc). Hefty books, but a similar theme (the dead start to invade the universe in a "fun but cheesey" way).

a lot of my inspiration comes more from comics than from books. the space patrol arent really superheroes but they have more in common with the green lantern corp or the legion of superheroes than they do with starfleet or the galactic patrol or whatever. essentially their 'schticks' are tech or science based. no lenses used though ;)

>Now all you have to do is came up with a system that suits the genre and you have a basis. But at the moment all you really have is an idea (2 fisted space opera action) that's been done before.

i have more ideas, ive been writing this for months; i just need a better idea of how the antagonists work as well as more ideas to make the genre seem bolder and the setting more - well - cheesy!

>You'd do well co try and capture the rediculous action and mad intensity of this type of thing.

the best way i can do that i can think of is to use the large scale technology (eg death stars and plaent eating ships) that are commonly associated with pulpy SF. Hence my question regarding size and scope.

>Not easy, but larger than life is what it's about. You'll wanna check out OcTane I recon?

im not sure octane is really a good example of a similar genre or style from what i have seen.

>Or "Sci-fi-ify" HeroWars. I think you'll find there are other systems already around that'll work for you, unless you're hell bent on creating your own you'll save a lot of time and pain by just yanking one of those and tweaking it and addingyour own setting.

i have some system ideas in hand; simple and quick, which is what i like. that can be discussed later. i am not going to crystallise rules until i have a better view of the setting and the 'hooks' involved within. (ie what makes my setting better than, say, core command.)


martin
But don't let any of this stop you trying :)


signoftheserpent Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2003 9:56 am    Post subject: pulp sf ideas - citizens, don your criticism helmets please

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i am trying to write a background for a pulp/classic/cheesy SF action/adventure/space opera style game. i am trying to find a focus for the antagonistic elements within the setting in an interesting way. what i present here is a brief explanation of how the bad guys work; it is very simple buyt as i wrote it i started to wodner if it wasnt t huge ripoff (subconsciously of course!) of deadlands/dark conspiracy. i present it here to solicit opinions and advice on how to make it a little more original. however to explain a couple of things:

1) the good guys are the space patrol - the name shoudl really say it all, however their specific details arent really relevant for now.
2) the mentors and the darklings are essentially yhe arisians and the eddore from lensman; they are cut from the same cloth really. their conflict spawned our galaxy
3) somewhat unrelatedly (is that a word?), i am wondering whether to limit the setting to our galaxy with perhaps a less fantastic tech level (as you might actually find in old SF) or increast the scope to the galaxy at large. there are as you might expect many alien races and the possibility for epic scope is increased with the physical size of the setting, however a smaller size might be easier to handle (similar i think to what the shootingiron people are doing with their danger aptrol game - which coincidentally i discoevered at the same time i started writing this - honest guv!)

here is my very brief little writeup:

"The Darklings were banished from the dark homeworld, the mysterious planet known only as 'Planet X' to the negative zone of 'dimension x' (from where the planet takes its name).

However since the reappearance of the planet, a cult has arisen that has secretly existed across the galaxy for as long as humanoid life has existed; these are the sinister Black Acolytes.

They fuel the power of the Darklings by harvesting fear and hate across the cosmos, working from the shadows to plant seeds of evil. Their purpose, and the ultimate fruit these seeds will bear, will be to breach the dimensional barrier placed by the Mentors after their eons old war to forever banish the Darklings. Fear and evil have the power to strengthen the Darklings across the barrier, enabling them to enter our dimension.
Only the Space Patrol can prevent the shadowy agents of evil and their masters who, even now (thanks to their servants' efforts) have the power to reach into our dimension with their thoughts, enabling them to affect the weak minded causing them to do their bidding, or to aid their servants work."

i really dont want to clone other games in development either (since they are actully going ot see print and mine is a little more..not going to, although that is the ultimate one-day-perhaps goal). both core command and danger patrol look cool, and this 'genre' seems popular at the moment.

thanks




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[signoftheserpent]

ignore the wierd cut and paste error, er, heh. my computer hates me.

martin

[Rich Stokes]

Ah, less "Horror" more "Action".  Got ya.  Try to track down Mike Alred's "crash Metro", "The Atomics" or "Spaceman" comics if you haven't read them.  I think that's what you're about.

The Mysterons (or similar) might be hard to do.  How about they can reach through from their dimension and send ideas and thoughts to people here.  Not quite the total control that the mysterons exert on people, but suggentions and dreams which create the Cult you speak about?  You only ever meet their agents, never the bad guys themselves.  Maybe the bad guys have sent through the plans for some kind of robotic slave device or Killbot or something.

[ADGBoss]

I think what you may want to try is something a lil more Dr. Who.  As you have Villians aplenty to look to.

In many of these Cheese Universes you have a layer of Antagonists

1) Evil Bad Guys... they are indestructable in an meaningful way, as they always come back next season bigger and badder. They may control one or more factions but rarely if ever work together.

2) Bad-Ass Races... These races themselves are unstoppable and may or may not be controlled by the above but they are impossible to beat except they have one fatal flaw.  

3) Lackeys These Serve 1 and 2 above

4) MEmbers of the Black Acolytes who are also members of the various good guy races

5) Lost Races ie Planets that are no longer part of the galactic community but who have not been visited by either side yet.

Once you have your layers down you can get down to thedetails of each group though I would suggest, you may want to leave the the backgrounds of each Big Evil vague, make the Players work to find out the information.

Oh and quasi-legal moral allies and enemies


SMH
ADGBoss

[signoftheserpent]

Ah, less "Horror" more "Action".  Got ya.  Try to track down Mike Alred's "crash Metro", "The Atomics" or "Spaceman" comics if you haven't read them.  I think that's what you're about.

The Mysterons (or similar) might be hard to do.  How about they can reach through from their dimension and send ideas and thoughts to people here.  Not quite the total control that the mysterons exert on people, but suggentions and dreams which create the Cult you speak about?  You only ever meet their agents, never the bad guys themselves.  Maybe the bad guys have sent through the plans for some kind of robotic slave device or Killbot or something.

i have read some atomics and spaceman (what i can find). i like mike alred and the visual style is perfect for my ideas (which is what appealled to me). i also draw inspiration from eveything from the League of Extraordinary Gentlmen to Tom Strong to Electropolis to the old Jack Kirby stuff. what i like about the comics is that you can pretty much use any idea and make it work, no matter the genre. superheroes seem to make all manner of genres and styles permissible and succesful - sometimes ;)

the mysterons are a good example because they are faceless, inscrutable and scientific in a scary way. they work through lackeys which keeps things from being overly repetitive.

[signoftheserpent]

>How about they can reach through from their dimension and send ideas and thoughts to people here.  

thats more or elss what i suggested, yes.

>Maybe the bad guys have sent through the plans for some kind of robotic slave device or Killbot or something.

naturally the bad guys continually devise new schemes for the pc's to foil. the only criticism with the mysteron approach is that it does remove the possibility of a tangible villain. can they ever be defeated? does that then make the setting less appealing.

[signoftheserpent]

>I think what you may want to try is something a lil more Dr. Who.  As you have Villians aplenty to look to.

im not sure what you mean. i doubt you meant time travel (although i did consider it, but its a whole 'nother ballgame really and opens a can of worms i dont want opened). you mean loads of disparate villains and villain groups. the best way to do that in games is to empower the creativity of the reader so that he comes up with his own villains. the best way i can figure of doing that is to present a set of sterotype villains for the gm to borrow from/be influenced by. the dwonside is that this detracts from a unique setting because you are letting the gm do all the work and i would like the best of both worlds (ie not a metaplot, but not a generic space game).

[Rich Stokes]

naturally the bad guys continually devise new schemes for the pc's to foil. the only criticism with the mysteron approach is that it does remove the possibility of a tangible villain. can they ever be defeated? does that then make the setting less appealing.

Maybe "the struggle goes on..." etc etc.  You have an enemy, you cannot defeat them as such, but you can keep them out until the Mentor awaken and deal with them.  The you also have a chance for the players to take the fight tno the bad guys by trying to cantact the Mentors or figure out what they did to banish them.  So the Mysterons wouldn't be a bad idea :)

[signoftheserpent]

the Black Acolytes were formed after the treacherous human scientist (and former Space Patrol agent) Darklite discoevered the dimensional prison of the darklings - evil disembodied brains possessed of immense psychic force. he gained access to their ancient and piowrful science - a level of sophistication that rivalled the Mentors' own, and was as twisted and dark as the Mentors' was pure and good. these scientific princieples are practised with secrecy among the Acolyte 'covens' that dot and infect the galaxy. they are practised like esoteric lore and are used to further the cause fo the darklings by giving assistance to the already disaffected and evil - such as intergalactic crimelords, or planetary dictators. wherever there are shadows between men and division between ideas, there exists the Black Acolytes.

something like that. comments?

[Ron Edwards]

Back from GAMA!

Hi S'serpent,

I like a lot of things about the proposed setting and feel of play; it all makes quick and fun sense to me.

I'm thinking, though, that it would fly very nicely with either Pocket Universe or Fudge. Can you let me know what kind of in-play stuff you have in mind that calls for a system different from these? Which is to say, Purist for System Simulationist design with low handling time?

Best,
Ron

[John Harper]

I'm the one responsible for Danger Patrol (S'serpent mentions it in his first post). There are indeed several similarities between my setting and what you're proposing here... but that's to be expected. I'm riffing off of TERMINAL CITY, the ATOMICS, Flash Gordon, and NEXUS, too.

In my setting, the dark cult is called the Stygian Adepts and they live in a sunless crater on the moon. :) Oh, and I have Space 'Force' in addition to the Danger Patrol that protects Rocket City.

When I first started working on DP (yeesh... over 4 years ago, now) I was shocked that no one had tried to do an RPG with a retro-sci-fi setting. Then I saw Terminal City, and Tom Strong, and the revival of the Pulps... it was only a matter of time. Suddenly we had Gear Krieg, Adventure!, and Spaceship Zero. No one is making anything quite like Danger Patrol, though. "Pulp Sci-Fi" is a big field to play around in.

The important thing, I think, is to do your own thing. Find what it is about the material that inspires you, and then go from there.

[signoftheserpent]

im answering this question first bcause it might seem like my pet project is a poor man's Danger Patrol. I am very conscious of the apparent similarities (Space Patrol is a simplisitc name that will likely be changed). i would just like to say that i am very interested in Danger Patrol and i amn a huge fan of this genre of games - i prefer 'pulpy' gaming because of the potential for excitemnt and drama, and the wealth of possibilities thar are present. i like superhero games for the same reason. I started writing this at the same time i heard of Danger Patrol and, should my ideas ever be lucky enough to see print, i hope there is room enough for both. :)

>I'm the one responsible for Danger Patrol (S'serpent mentions it in his first post). There are indeed several similarities between my setting and what you're proposing here... but that's to be expected. I'm riffing off of TERMINAL CITY, the ATOMICS, Flash Gordon, and NEXUS, too.

Space Patrol is supposed to be larger in scope; i envisage largse scale drama and action. for example, imagine huge battle fleets facing off against vast star spanning void spiders in their starsilk webs led by super-science enabled (thanks to the legacy of the mentors, which, as with lensman, is essentially wht the Space Patrol itself is). Or imagine vast fleets of humanoid robots capable of space travel bearing down on earth or Pollux Primus - homeworld of the Ongaro, a race of friendly sentient apes. (Those are action based examples, but as they say actions speak louder than words; also i feel its the player who brings the characterisation, acting and roleplaying to such situations, and i want the setting and the rules to accomadate this. Thats a hallmark of a succesful game, not jsut a good one.)

i havent reaed any terminal city, although i believe it was written by dean motter who wrote electropolis. i draw a great deal of inspiration from the art and writing of tom strong, who is a first class example of a Space Patrol agent. Dial in some Green Lantern and you have more of an idea of what i mean. Specifics on the Space Patrol itself will be presented later however, so dont worry too much for now.

>In my setting, the dark cult is called the Stygian Adepts and they live in a sunless crater on the moon. :) Oh, and I have Space 'Force' in addition to the Danger Patrol that protects Rocket City.

The name Black Acolyte, which is not a fixed name, is influenced by the very evoca\tive 'Stygian Adept'. However i feel that the Adepts are likely going to be more mystical than the Acolytes who, although they seem mysterious, shadowy and maybe even somewhat mystical (for want of a better word), really are masters of the dark and twisted science of the darklings. While the mentors use 'good' science, the darklings make use of twisted and evil science - both are quite advanced and powerful and enable their 'users' to accomplish a great deal. The primary tool of the SP is the 'science belt' which is not dissimilar to the green lantern ring (although not as omnipotent). The darklings use scary, dark and twisted designs (picture the torture tabel used on Han Solo in ESB, or the Chronos reflux from Nevermen comics).

The Black Acolytes are primarily agitators and are also the direct mirror opposite of the Space Patrol - they act as agents in the same sort of way, only in ultimate service of evil (ie the darklings). They are the ultimate foes for the SP, but they work by pulkling the striongs of many of the other agencies/forces/races and organisations within the setting. More on them will follow again, as the ideas are changing and crystallising somewhat.

I am also posting messages on the DP message board in order to learn a) the boundaries of the game, and also b) because i intend to buy it because it sounds darned good fun. as i said, i like this sort of game (Adventure! for example, is a huge influence). I would like to think that taking influences from - dare i say my peers! - is acceptable, however i - we - shoudl always strive to be as original as possible in our creative endeavours (thats just a personal ethos, if you like :) ).

>When I first started working on DP (yeesh... over 4 years ago, now) I was shocked that no one had tried to do an RPG with a retro-sci-fi setting.

Ive been a fan of SF all my life; i saw SW when i was 5, started reading comics when i was 7 (especially 2000ad). Im a big kid, i guess! lol.

>Then I saw Terminal City, and Tom Strong, and the revival of the Pulps... it was only a matter of time. Suddenly we had Gear Krieg, Adventure!, and Spaceship Zero. No one is making anything quite like Danger Patrol, though. "Pulp Sci-Fi" is a big field to play around in.

Thats what im saying, Pulp genres are the widest in scope that i can ehink of, and i find it easier to write ideas within pulp genres (perhaps not surprisingly since they are more 'simplistic' - but thats the appeal) and i find those ideas more entertaining - and the main goal when its all said and done is just that: entertainment.

>The important thing, I think, is to do your own thing. Find what it is about the material that inspires you, and then go from there.

Well i hope that you, especilly, will see, if you dont yet, that SP has its own voice. Anyway, i am looking forward to the release of DP, because i will certainly be buying it and not even the death star will be stopping me!

martin

[signoftheserpent]

>I like a lot of things about the proposed setting and feel of play; it all makes quick and fun sense to me.

thanks.

>I'm thinking, though, that it would fly very nicely with either Pocket Universe or Fudge. Can you let me know what kind of in-play stuff you have in mind that calls for a system different from these? Which is to say, Purist for System Simulationist design with low handling time?

Briefly (mechanics are by no means finalised in any way; these are just current ideas):

Heroes have the following as traits, which serve broadly as a mixture of attributes and skills (in the traditional sense). Heroes also posess a few Abilities which are categorised by Trait and define exceptional areas of skill possessed by that character (such as crackshot, stunt piloting etc).

SCIENCE; MECHANICS; PILOT; FIGHTING; COMMAND; WILLPOWER and INITIATIVE.

Traits are rated from 1-6, which is also the scale for Difficulty levels.

One further and unique Trait is COURAGE, which is based on the character's highest Trait score and will change during play. (Heroes also have 1 or more Abilities according to their chosen race.)

When making an Action Attempt, the player rolls (relevant trait)d6; the action is succesful if the result of any single die (after being possibly modifed by ABility effects as well as the usual range of conditions that may apply) is => the Difficulty Level.

However, of the Difficulty exceeds the character's current Courage, he gains +1 Courage (or maybe the exact differenmce, i havent decided) after the action is resolved (and regardless of the outcome).

Furthermore, Courage is also the measure of how much damage, exhasution and stress (ie mental and psychological damage) a Hero might take. This will be the most difficult part as the actual scale of Courage is small compared to damage from potential weapons, howver it neednt be an issue.

To answer your broader question, there is no reason other than personal pride and my desire as a system monkey to make my own set of rules. I supose there isnt really any game in existence that cant really make use of any set of rules, with or without much modification. After all even Castlfe Falkenstein has been converted to GURPS and Godlike into d20.

I am not opposed to using a pre existing ruleset, although i amo not familiar with Fudge or Pocket Universe. I have toyed with using Tri Stat to playtest the game and, as a benefit of being in the amaetur stage of design, i can write any set of rules using any exisitng rules system, so there is no reason why i cant write rules or conversions for Tri Stat, Storyteller (based on Adventure, which was another possibility), and Unisystem, which are the most common systems i am most familiar with.

Ultimately it all comes down to what idea works best. I am open to whatever. I guess it all depends on your personal preference, do you personally like to learn new rules systems or not; after all in the marketplace i doubt that any ruleset i choose would be familiar to every potential customer - not even d20.

martin