TROS magic system and spells

[Brian Leybourne]

But how about making a staff glow with an internal light that illuminates the room?

The closest I've been able to come is a Spell of Three using Vision (to see what's in the room) and Glamour (to make it look like it's being illuminated,) which doesn't ACTUALLY produce the effect, it just LOOKS like it does.

Such a circitous route to such a simple parlour trick.

Why is destroying the universe easier than lighting a room?
:)

Come on Bob, at least give us a challenge.

Firstly, your idea works, except that the vision component is not necessary. If your goal is to make the things in the room illuminated then Glamour can do it, Vision is only needed to see things you can't already see yourself. And as for your complaint as to how "real" it was, as long as it worked, how is it relevant if it's magical illumination or you just THINK it's magical illumination? The result is the same.

Another way to do it would be with Sculpture and Movement. Use Sculpture three to change the properties of the staff head to something that emits light when it heats up (you're making a lightbulb, essentially) and then use Movement to vibrate the molecules it it to create heat. Voila! Let there be light.

Sure, unlike many magic systems there isn't a concenient "create light" spell/effect but that's because TROS magic is modelled differently. I can still create any effect you can come up with, regardless of how much you think it's "cheating" :-)

Brian.

[Valamir]

Interesting Brian.  Cause from my perspective what you just described is the second reason I don't really care for the sorcery rules.  It requires a fairly advanced knowledge (by 15th-16th century standards) of chemistry and physics.  Why is this a problem?   Well, three reasons it bugs me.

1) It opens up the whole wide range of destroy everything with my uber ability to manipulate things on the atomic level...cheap.

2) If sorcerers, due to powers like Vision, really were learning advanced notions of atomic level science centuries early, there should be some corresponding effect on Wyerth's development.  I find it hard to believe that of all the scientist sorcerers there've ever been on Wyerth, that not one of them tried to use the scientific knowledge gained for non magical purposes.  If vagaries like vision and motion really work the way you describe you'd need to have the technical knowledge of Thomas Edison to throw a lighting bolt.  And if you did...why not avoid the aging rolls and just invent a generator and light bulb.

3) I like magic to be more magic than science.

[Bob Richter]

But how about making a staff glow with an internal light that illuminates the room?

The closest I've been able to come is a Spell of Three using Vision (to see what's in the room) and Glamour (to make it look like it's being illuminated,) which doesn't ACTUALLY produce the effect, it just LOOKS like it does.

Such a circitous route to such a simple parlour trick.

Why is destroying the universe easier than lighting a room?
:)

Come on Bob, at least give us a challenge.

Firstly, your idea works, except that the vision component is not necessary. If your goal is to make the things in the room illuminated then Glamour can do it, Vision is only needed to see things you can't already see yourself. And as for your complaint as to how "real" it was, as long as it worked, how is it relevant if it's magical illumination or you just THINK it's magical illumination? The result is the same.

Another way to do it would be with Sculpture and Movement. Use Sculpture three to change the properties of the staff head to something that emits light when it heats up (you're making a lightbulb, essentially) and then use Movement to vibrate the molecules it it to create heat. Voila! Let there be light.

Sure, unlike many magic systems there isn't a concenient "create light" spell/effect but that's because TROS magic is modelled differently. I can still create any effect you can come up with, regardless of how much you think it's "cheating" :-)

Brian.

The point is that I *can't* see it. It's bloody pitch-black in the room, and Glamour CAN NOT produce light, only the illusion thereof. Therefore, the
Vision component is REQUIRED.

If it's bright enough for me to see everything that would be illuminated, why do I need a glowing staff?

Folks have been telling me recently that I can't vibrate molecules with movement (esp. not without a vision component,) this is what lead to the death of the Fireball. And I don't allow people to perform elemental transmutation with Sculpture in my games. That would require an advanced degree in nuclear chemistry, something your average hedge-wizard doesn't posess.

It took the great Edison a number of years and hundreds of failures to make the light-bulb. How is my illiterate hedge-wizard going to be able to figure it out on the spur of the moment?

Why does it matter if it's magical illumination or only appears that way?

Because the two effects are diffferent. The result may be the same, but it's a different EFFECT.

TROS has no sorcerous light.

But that was an easy one, with a route I had already come up with.

How about a sword, that can be used and wielded by anyone, that will burst instantly into flame upon command, or with every blow struck, without harming the wielder?

TROS Sorcery is powerful: it's the only one I've seen so far that's capable of destroying the universe with a single spell that any entry-level character might know, but it's very limited in basic (and very useful) RPG tricks.

[Brian Leybourne]

Those are all fair comments Ralph. And to be honest, I completely agree with you on all three. However, I wasn't defending sorcery so much as demonstrating that you can do anything with the system if you care to. Different focus.

How to make TROS magic more magical and less scientific? It would be pretty easy, all you have to do is shuffle the vagaries slightly so that it's possible to do things like altering the structure of metals or creating light without needing to see the molecules or know how light is made (the lightning spell I posted earlier in the thread suffers from a similar problem, that you have to know how electric charges are built up in nature).

That's easy enough... make a new Vagary called "Forces" that lets you create and control things like flame, light, and so on. And while you're at it, rename Sculpture to "Matter", Growth to "Life", and Summoning to "Spirit". Then, while you're at it, call the Vagaries "Spheres" instead, that's a better name. Hmm.. and we need a new one that governs magic itself, lets call it "Prime".

Sorry, sarcasm attack. But to be honest, if a more fantastic and less scientific magic system was your goal, you could do worse than merging the TROS and Mage systems together, you wouldn't even need to change much since the Mage system already works on D10 die pools etc. The other idea that I kind of like is dropping TROS magic altogether and making a TROSified version of Ron Edwards' Sorcerer for the magic system - TROS mages summon demons and get their power that way. I even spoke to Ron about this a while back and it's on my list of projects to do. Ah, so many projects and so little time...

Brian.

[Jake Norwood]

I made a Fireball once, but the precedents for it seem to have been removed. :(

But how about making a staff glow with an internal light that illuminates the room?

The closest I've been able to come is a Spell of Three using Vision (to see what's in the room) and Glamour (to make it look like it's being illuminated,) which doesn't ACTUALLY produce the effect, it just LOOKS like it does.

Such a circitous route to such a simple parlour trick.

Why is destroying the universe easier than lighting a room?
:)

Gotta disagree here, Bob. Glamour alone will work just fine. I think your definition of glamour here is too strict.

As for "removing precedents..." What do you mean? I've never deleted a post, even when I've wanted to.

Jake

[Rick]

I'd hollow out my staff and fill it with "dried" (or wet) oil.  Cap it with something (wax, metal, wood (heck, use sculpture) stick a wick in it and light the puppy.  For a brighter light, make kerosene or something. Shrink a nice dry redwood.  That'll burn for a bit.  Sculpt a reflective disc around the base out of silver, or make a mirror under or around it in a prism with glass or crystal.  Fireworks (and adaptations there of (i.e. sparklers)) have been around for some time now too, existing way before circa 1400.  Or teleport the light from the sunny side of the world into the room, or better yet bounce it around the world on a series of levitating mirrors controlled by some imprisoned spirits who have to spend the rest of eternity aligning up mirrors at me.  Put some flint chips and steel shavings together in a crystal ball and spin them around to make sparks.  Phosphorus glows, and so does lichen and so does certain types of naturally occurring fluid in fish, recreated with growth perhaps. Blown like bubbles.  Or what if the number of rods and cones in the eye were increased.  Maybe the ears could be altered to sense the vibrations of sound off the walls.  Nah, too complicated.

[Ben Lehman]

Have to say though, IMO a better way is not to allow them to use Summoning in that way. Electric charges or heat can be done through the Movement vagary as I showed above, so it's still possible to create energy or fire etc. Similarly, Sculpture could be used to create water or air, etc.

BL>  To put it quite frankly, most fantasy worlds are not explicitly based upon modern scientific principles.  If yours is, go you.  But the ones which I am trying to adapt RoS magic to are not.  They are based upon fantastical principles.

 Now the answer to this is often "go use (ars magic, sorceror, mage, etc.) instead."  The thing is, despite its warts, I find the RoS magic system to be wildly better than any I've played, and I do intend to keep using it.  My question here is this:
 How can I include the creation, destruction, and manipulation of natural energy without disrupting the game or the internal balance of sorcery overmuch?

yrs--
--Ben

[Ben]

How can I include the creation, destruction, and manipulation of natural energy without disrupting the game or the internal balance of sorcery overmuch?

The easiest way I can see, is to just say that the 'Magic' aspect of the Spiritual Vageries encompas all 'energies', real or contribed. That way you can draw it to you, disperse it, or imprison it. Then extend the Physical Vageries to somehow include these and you'll have that manipulation. That might work.

[Bob Richter]

I made a Fireball once, but the precedents for it seem to have been removed. :(

But how about making a staff glow with an internal light that illuminates the room?

The closest I've been able to come is a Spell of Three using Vision (to see what's in the room) and Glamour (to make it look like it's being illuminated,) which doesn't ACTUALLY produce the effect, it just LOOKS like it does.

Such a circitous route to such a simple parlour trick.

Why is destroying the universe easier than lighting a room?
:)

Gotta disagree here, Bob. Glamour alone will work just fine. I think your definition of glamour here is too strict.

As for "removing precedents..." What do you mean? I've never deleted a post, even when I've wanted to.

Jake

If Glamour alone can light a darkened room (which, why would it be able to? it's illusion!) What ELSE can it do beyond the scope of illusion? Does it actually create physical light or only the mental illusion of light? Can one make an illusory sword that makes illusory wounds with Glamour?

I've always believed that Glamour was a mental Vagary, and therefore only created the appearance of something by influencing the mind.

As for that bit about removing precidents? All of the temperature-effecting spells are gone from the new sorcery section.

[Bob Richter]

I'd hollow out my staff and fill it with "dried" (or wet) oil.  Cap it with something (wax, metal, wood (heck, use sculpture) stick a wick in it and light the puppy.  For a brighter light, make kerosene or something. Shrink a nice dry redwood.  That'll burn for a bit.  Sculpt a reflective disc around the base out of silver, or make a mirror under or around it in a prism with glass or crystal.  Fireworks (and adaptations there of (i.e. sparklers)) have been around for some time now too, existing way before circa 1400.  Or teleport the light from the sunny side of the world into the room, or better yet bounce it around the world on a series of levitating mirrors controlled by some imprisoned spirits who have to spend the rest of eternity aligning up mirrors at me.  Put some flint chips and steel shavings together in a crystal ball and spin them around to make sparks.  Phosphorus glows, and so does lichen and so does certain types of naturally occurring fluid in fish, recreated with growth perhaps. Blown like bubbles.  Or what if the number of rods and cones in the eye were increased.  Maybe the ears could be altered to sense the vibrations of sound off the walls.  Nah, too complicated.

Let's be clear, I want a glowing staff, not a torch.

I want to take my ordinary walking stick and make it glow at a moment's notice. Teleportation is another trick TROS Sorcery can't actually do, and using Movement on Photons...well, that's more'n a little bit odd.

[Ben]

I've just had a more awesome idea.

Ditch Glamour. It always bothered me. Just doesn't seem to work consistantly or fit. So we ditch it and replace it with something that alows the sorceror to bend the energies or forces of nature to his will or to will them around. (or somesort of mental twist to it that allows them to tap the energies otherwise offlimit to them).

Anyway, the aspects could be something like the nature of the energies(akin to Sculpture's composition) L1=# of simple waves(sound, water waves). L2=# of energies (light or radiation) L3=# of forces(inertia, magnatism, and maybe any contribed things like fire or life force);
the intensity or amount being controled, L1=a little bit, not too harmful, L2=a good bit, crippling, L3="that's alot of bit", very destructive;
and the guidence of it(like - L1=used in a way it would normally work. L2=works as it does naturally but with exceptions, like lightning bypassing a closer or more grounded target to strike another one. L3=using it in a way that's most unnatural(adding inertia to an illusion to give it umf).

Illusions woulds be created by first excersiseing dominion over the 'elements' of sound and light, and then using scuplture to shape it and movement to animate it.

There are some flaws to this method, about as many as to useing Glamour, but probablly more obvious. At any, I like it.

[Ashren Va'Hale]

the question regarding the use of glamour is this, is there a difference as far as the object of the spell is concerned between the illussion of light and light itself?  if there is what is it?

[kpike69]

ok question..just what can you do with illusion? if you can create light from nothing could you create illusionary fire?..would it burn?....

[Ashren Va'Hale]

burn as in cause damage, doubt it, you could have someone think it burns and what not depending on the level of teh vagary used and how many senses you witsh to fool.

maybe if I wanted to fool touch and sight I would maybe have the effected person suffer pain and shock unless they made a will power or perception roll to realize its not actually fire.......

[Jake Norwood]

Glamour isn't exactly illusion, though that's a big part of it. Glamour is "Fairy magic." You could burn down a whole building with it, and the building would really burn, but the next day the building would be there. You could make a sword out of glamour and "kill" a guy with it, but the next day (or after the duration of the spell) he'd be okay (if a little traumatized). I'd say what glamour really does is affect the senses (this is consistent with the vagary levels). Light falls into that category, IMO.

And remember--I, too, am an interpereter (not the creator) of the Magic system.

Jake